First Purchase Nightmare – 2003 360 Modena F1

Was the seller a dealership or an individual?

 

So he’s a guy “agent” operating a sales operation without a license and possibly jumping title. California will eat him alive. Tell him he’s buying the car back by Monday or you’re calling the DMV, State AG, and the Cali FTB in addition to an attorney.

 

Bought from the guy in central coast?

 

Yes, follow what Joe (JAM1) advised. Good luck and keep us updated.

Two asides-

-The date on the belt is when it was manufactured, not when it was installed.

- Obviously it is too late now, but the best time to come on this forum for advice is BEFORE the purchase, not AFTER.

 

You state that you had a " detailed service binder". Was this binder ever looked at? It is the responsibility of the purchaser doing a proper due diligence , PRIOR to purchase. Also, we do dozens of PPI's annually, and I always ask for service records, if available, as reviewing them is also part of my job to offer a proper PPI. Did your PPI shop review the records and discuss with you any past service items that were over due, such as timing belts, old tires, annual services that were not done timely? That is all part of the due diligence process, which from what is written above potentially didn't happen. The seller can not be held responsible for your situation, as you don't state that any misrepresentations were given to you about the mechanical condition of the car.
Gary Bobileff
Bobileff Motorcar Company in San Diego

 

Gary, with respect I don't think reviewing the service records would have mattered if the full PPI didn't catch a cracked (or leaking) fuel pump. As if the car was never started, or driven, and that somehow passed inspection for fumes that will linger for literally days.

You have to be either incompetent or oblivious to the smell of fuel as if Ferrari and fire hazard have never existed in the same sentence before.

One way to encourage a belt to skip is by closing the throttle plates at high RPMs with a complete lift. A failed tensioner or improper tension will reveal itself rather quickly. Perhaps the belts were changed by agent with a "shop" that "maintains" private car collections. And you know what they say about assumptions!

 

Bit harsh.

 

Well, I was mainly commenting on when the timing belts were changed. Ferrari's last technical bulletin regarding timing belt changes states that timing belts should be changed from their original 7 year time frame, then went to five years, now they say every three years, regardless of mileage. Downshift 831 never mentioned which model he was referring to. He said that the timing belt skipped a tooth causing damage. He may be speaking about a 6 speed three pedal car in which when the car is parked on a hill, and the hand brake doesn't hold, or wasn't applied, if the car rolls back wards, then it's entirely feasible that the cams jumped time, as the motor would spin backwards, as this condition was most common in 308's, and can also happen in 355,'s , 360's and other 3 pedal cars. Downdraft 831 should state which car we're talking about to get more clarity on the situation.
Gary Bobileff

 

I have no idea what is going on here but most of us would say replace the T belts and tensioners at 4 years. And while you're in there you usually do a bunch of other maintenance. 2021 is close enough for a car you just bought. The belts aren't good on Dec 31 and bad on Jan 1. Its a rule of thumb. I think most of us here would have negotiated this replacement cost in the purchase price, and then done it.

I'm not picking on you but... it makes it a bit more difficult to claim it wasn't done in 2021 when 2021 means the given date is about now for replacement anyway. And the date code of the belt doesn't mean anything to when the car had them changed.

Unless the fuel pump was literally leaking a PPI isn't going to show an issue. If it was leaking, kinda hard to imagine it wasn't discovered because of fuel smell. If it was repaired and installed incorrectly, or aftermarket or somehow damaged -- yes -- the PPI should have found that. But not leaking one day and leaking the next could happen anytime.

PPI's are good for finding obvious things wrong, serious damage or modification to the engine, hidden body repair of improper painting, missing parts, accident damage, poor past repairs, and any obvious problems like oil and water leaks, emissions disconnected, tires and brakes are worn, the clutch condition, and a look at the oil and fluids. It should also list the problems AND recommended maintenance that may need to be done immediately or some time in the future.

I have to assume the car is a 360 as F430s on have chains. If so, they stopped building them 20 years ago. In 20 years lots of stuff happens, even just sitting there.

So I'm a little in Gary's camp here. Get what you can from the dealer as best you can and chock it up.

 

I'd follow JAM1's advice and lawyer up.

 

I think lawyering up will be a royal waste of time. Sounds like the issues surfaced post purchase. Unless you believe the seller made material misrepresentations its an old car with all the "buyer beware" warnings attached. Sometimes there's simply bad luck. Life is long, fix it, drive it and buy a few more Ferrari's so on average things work out.

 

I think you have just been unlucky. You had a PPI done; then something failed, which the seller agreed to fix; while that was being fixed, something else failed, more major, which the seller didn't agree to fix.

I've bought Ferraris with and without warranties, and without a warranty you're hoping for good luck, which sadly escaped you here.

Only one question: you say the seller told you cam belts had been changed in 2021. But you are now doubting that. If the car has a full history binder, it will show who changed the cam belts, and when. If it's not in the history, it didn't happen. If you were told in writing they were changed, and you have no evidence, and now they failed, you'd certainly have a point to make to the seller. Not sure about legally, in the US, but you'd have grounds to say this item failed, you said they had been changed in 21, they weren't.

 

I Agree with JAM1, call the DMV, and attorney and make him buy the car back, any good Dealear would do that .Good Luck .

 

Lawyer up and stop talking about it on the Internet.

 

Sad circumstance to be in. Legal advice is worth considering, but also know that lawsuits seeking in the tens of thousands may not be worth pursuing. Still, it is an unlucky ouch, good luck on the healing path.

 

I wrote a response 3 times and deleted them, echoing the concerns of the legal cost, and adding that like all industries, the legal profession has been severely downgraded, as many attorneys are now WFH, and quality has plummeted. IMHO, these days less than 5% are what I consider "good attorneys" - used to be about 20%. Even the good firms are struggling to find good attorneys - or even so-so attorneys.

 

If the dealer said he'd buy the car back, just nicely ask him to follow thru and return your money. I agree with the anti attorney stuff. Most want $350 +++ an hour.
I had an issue with a fire on a job site. My insurance claimed an exclusion. I had to get representaion. $150,000 claim. Insurance brokers E & O paid 80k, I paid 25K, customers insurance ate the rest. Cost me another 25K to attorney. Nobody wins.....and cost me 50K

 

I do not recall any Ferrari using timing belts where the production code is not visible during an inspection. In my inspections reporting on their production age is always included. Except in cases of component failure or very extreme age issues I have never seen a properly installed belt on any Ferrari slip in normal use. Sorry.....No sale.
Also, it sounds like we are talking about a 360 here. With any of the 4 or 5 valve heads they have so much valve to piston clearance that slipping one tooth on either intake or exhaust does not result in bent valves. So that line is either a straight up lie or a example of their of ignorance.

Short version, you are getting screwed. The inspection was worthless (Most are) and either lack of knowledge, talent or integrity is driving the current situation provided of course we are hearing a complete and correct version of events.


Get a refund or regain possession of the car, have it inspected by a different, capable and honest Ferrari repair shop and consult a lawyer.

Sorry for your trouble on your first Ferrari. The Ferrari world is shark infested and full of charlatans.

 

End of story, fade to black.

From a lifetime Ferrari master tech. People will still beat the PPI drum until they are blue in the face. They are next to worthless.

Know what you are looking for in a Ferrari's service records. Sounds like the OP didn't read them, probably because he just thought it sounded good to have.

These cars carry much higher risk than others. The more risk you take (ignorance), the more you should be willing to pay.

A lawyer will be a complete waste of time, but good luck to you. If the seller wasn't reasonable and acting in good faith he wouldn't have agreed to the first failure fix.

 

I disagree. I would **** the bad guy. I would make him regret the day he was born. I don't care how money it costs.

 

PPIs are far from worthless if the correct people are chosen to do it. The problem is buyers are about as careful choosing inspectors as they are choosing a head of lettuce. I see it every week and then they wonder why they got a bad car.

 

The lesson is you are buying the seller. I can't imagine buying a Ferrari from somebody I don't know.