Has Ferrari Lost It's Luster?

• One thing about the nannies (or at least the essential ones like traction control and ABS and auto mode and such) is that they do allow many more people to drive the things. My wife absolutely could not safely drive a 500HP/500tq car without them, and I suspect many of the current owners and cars would be bad combinations without them. The days of weekend racers buying machines off the showroom floor are long in the past.

 

I don't mind the front-mid layout, particularly if you think of it as a super-GT car, not a supercar. I can think no logical explanation for the 911 layout, however. It's a handicap with no benefit.

And much as I would overlook this quirky feature of 911s fifteen years ago because of the great steering feel and fun transmissions, the F12 can be forgiven for so many sins because of that glorious engine. Though I also think it's great to drive, I like the steering, I love the styling, etc., etc.

Still, I agree with you and @ryalex, I'd love to (also) see a mid-engined V12 Ferrari production car. Though for that application, I'd personally prefer a smaller displacement V12 to keep the weight down. Give me, say, four liters and 12k RPM.

 

I find none of those essential. I've never used auto and almost always drive with ESC off.

But...its fine, because (ABS aside) I'm given the option to disable them. And, like you say, so many people want and/or need them. Everyone wins...so long as they remain defeatable.

However, I think @Texas Forever's point was that the nannies are beginning to force other compromises like electric steering and brake-by-wire. Electric steering is not necessary for any of those essential items you list. It's needed for autonomous features like lane assist. I'd argue that such autonomous features have no place in a Ferrari, so electric steering should not be required either. But, here we are.

I don't believe brake-by-wire is needed for the nannies, it's needed to make pedal response predictable in cars with energy recovery systems (another topic altogether). However, it found it's way into the 12C for reasons that I don't understand.

 

Wait until the speed limit sign reader cruise control helpers don’t let you speeed. It’s coming.

 

Gordon Murray makes the cars that most closely match my ethos of what driving perfection can be. When my friends talk supercars I keep saying the T.33 Spider is essentially my dream car (although I wish it revved as high as the 5T.50!).

 

Same. Love everything about that car except the styling. Which isn't awful, it just doesn't wow me.

 

"All this seems to echo the talk I used to here on the Porsche chat board. Tech is what sells cars these days. Design, not so much. Guys on the P-chat lamented the loss of the visceral feel of the "older cars" once the new tech was overtaking the 911."

Agreed, and this is happening in almost all semi luxury cars out there. My Daily is a manual 2018 Audi A5 (Coupe), and while is extremely competent, it feels very isolating and the steering wheel while precise, has no feedback. It is very good and solid in bad weather, but not that fun to drive.

20 years ago, I used to have an B5 A4 1.8T quatro, and I loved the car. So I ended up buying an Audi A4 B5 (2001), manual, just for fun, and the difference is remarkable. Even, not a true sports car, the old Audi A4 b5 feels like a go kart, and much more fun compared to the more modern one (which on paper has 40% more hp).

My other cars are Mercedes Benz w123 (one Diesel, 1984 300D, and one Coupe 280CE, 1980). Both insanely fun to drive for completely different reasons. The 300D is like driving a slow tractor, while the 280CE feels like a true sports car, which for the era had really good specs (mine is the euro version).

TLDR: Modern cars have lost their 'directness', in order to appeal to the masses. They are more isolating, more tech focused, and ultimately more boring. When I get in my old b5 Audi, or w123 Merc, every ride feels like an experience. With the modern one, it feels like an efficient trip, but with no drama and less feels.

The fact that Ferrari has abandoned manuals altogether, means the brand doesn't really care anymore about true sports enthusiast and it just want to appeal to the "birkin bag" crowd (or the male version of it). A car to just show off status, and that's it.

 

Because I'm positive Maranello is reading this thread and burning the midnight oil trying to figure out what to do, I have a suggestion for them. Build the Super America without that stupid roof (make it carbon fiber). Make it a stick, please. While you are at it, replace the over bolstered seats with the 812 seats, thank you very much. Oh, and please, pretty, please with a cherry on top, use good components for hoses and other stuff instead of crap.

You'll sell a jillion cars. No thanks is necessary. The pleasure is all mine.

 

I've thought about similar advancements in all production of the cars we drive, the home appliances we use, and devises we use. I firmly believe it kinda becomes a "toilet paper issue". Sometimes the ideas you hit on are simply the culmination of the product performing exactly as it needs to. Any further "improvements" are either unappreciated or simply unnecessary. When you take a good look at a product sometimes it's just fine the way it is. No further improvements are really seen as improvements and many times are just over-complications.

But of course there's the rub. Tech advancements are what they are; advancements. And it would be silly to think that these advancements would not make their way into all consumer products. Manufacturers know they need "new and improved" to sell their offerings. Sadly with our sports cars-- and of course our Ferraris-- they will be implemented. It's just a natural process of product evolution.

It becomes an issue of do enough folks feel they don't need a TV screen in their refrigerator door or an over complicated driving machine. I'm of the opinion that it's not necessarily nostalgia that is driving the popularity of the "older" models of our Ferrari. But rather the idea that many of us simply don't feel the need for improvements that we feel are unwanted and most importantly, don't add to the enjoyment of driving a Ferrari.

Let's be realistic. Prices on the older Ferraris are always rising. Sure it is in part due to inflation over the years, but, we have to ask ourselves why do we pay more for these older less technologically advanced driving machines. What is is that makes them so desirable to us?

I think I know what it is...

 

Or detract from it, in some cases (particularly those "advancements" imposed by regulations).

 

Agreed. However most mandates imposed are for safety. I can live with that (no pun intended ). It's the superfluous things that Ferrari (and other manufacturers) choose to do that drive me crazy.
-- E-brake that sets itself upon exiting the car
-- Glove box electric release in the console of the 458
To name just two off the top of my head that cover unnecessary and overly complicated.

 

Let me prove your point with another example. I once went through three Bosch dishwashers. After they replaced the third one, the tech asked me if I was using the extra-hot water. When I said yes, he explained that was the problem. He said the top of the door handle was loaded with chips. Two things micro chips don't like are heat and water. Duh.

Compare this to a dishwasher in my mother's old house. It was 100% analog. All it did was wash dishes, over, and over, and over, and over again, for 40 years.

 

Beautiful car. Sounds great. I still lust for it. I owned a 1990 TR. The dream was better than reality. The car was not fun in and around town. Not nimble. On the highway- it was great. Two years later I sold it and purchased a 993 911. I was much happier from a drivers perspective. From a driving perspective the 812 is superior in every way- and by a very, very large margin.

 

I think Ferrari’s are too expensive too. And I’m probably wrong. First of all, almost everything is too expensive now. I finally sound like my parents. I purchased new a 2014 458 Spider for about $310K plus tax. That’s 11 years ago. Add inflation and you get a much faster 296 for less. My 458 had cowl shake, sticky buttons and questionable brakes. The 296 brings hyper car performance and it actually sounds good- although not as good as a 458 (that and a 355 are peak engine sound for an 8 cylinder car).

I bought my first new Ferrari in 1989. The quality of Ferrari’s have improved dramatically since then. The older cars were not made better but they were simpler. High performance has always been expensive while requiring more maintenance. That hasn’t changed.

Everything involves trade offs. One car cannot be the best at everything. And for that reason, many of us own multiple cars to appreciate the different ways other cars singularly excel.

I personally detest turbos as they kill sound and bring lag instead of a linear power curve. And I have a few. And many of the turbo’s have gotten really good when it comes to lag.

The SF90 sounds awful (IMO). The second hybrid (296) sounds good. Likely, each iteration will sound better?

As has been noted here, every generation dislikes change and wants the good old days. If we’re blessed- we all turn into our parents.

Ferrari is one of the most successful brands- hard to argue that point away.

 

Historically, yes. But these days most are about emissions and efficiency.

As for safety, many (crumple zones, air bags) yes, I'm good with. But I can live without most of the more recent "safety" advancements. I don't need help steering or braking and I don't have any blind spots. Just let me drive!

 

And no (sticky) plastics inside!

 

My take it is that:
1) The nostalgia things talk to our inner Child in a way the newest can’t
2) The nostalgia Ferraris are not purchased to be driven as dailys, so the drama is given by the stronger physical effort needed to experience them for a short time. But can you imagine driving them for 60.000 km/year?
3) Each of them at its launch was softer and more refined than the predecessor, and praised for this, without realising that by doing so our senses were excited less. The same of when, stressed from a nervous woman, we get a more gentle one just to discover that on a longer run she can become boring. So this must be why, in my opinion, many poor folks without realising stick to their crazy old ladies.

 

I watched the "Losing Luster" video and was perplexed. Back in '84-'85 when I was looking for a vintage sports car among my very top choices was the 250 LWB California Spider. It was unaffordable then as it is now. The dream never died. Experts told me that the MB 300SL was a better car and far less expensive due to higher production numbers. I bought a 300SL, loved it and owned one for 31 years. Sold it in 2018, replaced it with an SLS AMG Roadster...still love it. My "adoptive Godfather" is a huge Ferrari enthusiast who allowed me to drive rare and valuable vintage Ferrari's. When I asked in 2023 "What is you favorite car to drive among your entire collection?" Interestingly not the La Ferrari, not the 812 Comp, not the Porche Carrera GT, or the F12TDF. He chose the 812 SF, however regretted that he had not chosen 812 GTS instead. Remembering my lust for the 250 California Spider, I looked for months and purchased an 812 GTS. Best all around sports/GT car I have owned or driven, and that includes the 812 Comp. I owned for a bullet proof 15 months and no issues. I decided to rewatch the Demuro reviews of the 812 SF & 812 GTS. Of the 812 SF, "Hard to find fault except price, amazing car & performance, best car I ever tested, one of greatest car I have ever driven." Of the 812 GTS "Amazing power & sound, better than the 812 SF, amazing to drive, very expensive ... if you are going to spend the $...this does it all. The convertible adds to the experience, only drawbacks are screens and infotainment. even better than the 812 SF, gorgeus only really expensive." I like Doug! years ago while diving in the Washington, DC area he saw me driving my 300SL, and sent me the photo following an online chat. I cannot speak to other modern Ferrari's because other than 812 variants I have only driven the SF90 convertible. It appears that the 812 variants have not lost their luster and I agree on that!! After nearly 40 years of longing, I got my front engine V12 , NA, Ferrari convertible and am very, very pleased with my 1st Ferrari. As compared to the 12Cilindri the 812 range variants appear to be a bargain. There is potential for appreciation if significant tariffs are applied to the 12 Cilindri.

 

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Luca Cordero di Montezemolo killed the marque? Back in 2014, Montezemolo resigned as president and chairman of Ferrari following increasing tension with his would-be successor, FIAT Chrysler CEO, Sergio Marchionne.

The initial public offering of common shares of Ferrari N.V. (“Ferrari”) occurred on October 21st, 2015 at USD 52 per common share (IPO price range: USD 48 – 52 per common share) on the New York Stock Exchange (“NYSE”) operated by NYSE Euronext.

Pfft!

 

Tell me a car maker that hasn't lost its luster.

Don't tell me "Lotus". Have you seen their re-badged Chinese electric SUV? Embarrassing and frankly insulting.

And don't tell me "Porsche". SUV's are their best sellers. Full electric cars that weigh 5000 lbs. You could stick a Kia badge on these and think nothing is wrong.

The world has changed. Not much we can do about it.

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Here is the problem. I find his items -- which are great -- cold. Like an engineer controlled everything. No design passion. No real art. To me Ferrari needs to be Art, which is why the F80 leaves me cold. Not that I could afford it but I also don't lust over it either.

A hyper car should be something you lust over and admire just by looking at it.

 

The 458 is the “wife’s car”. I would have sold it but my girl wants me to hold it for her. She has driven it once!

 

I also own an electric Macan Turbo. The vehicle can keep up with a new 911 on the track. Fit and finish is well above any Korean car.

No turbo lag. No awful sounding turbo engine. Just quiet brutal torque. It serious business- getting around fast with great handling and real world room for people and stuff. Not perfect for everyone and a bargain just the same.

 

After reading that piece on ferrari where the ceo says we are a luxury company that also makes cars, yes. Ferrari isn't what I grew up loving.

Fortunately there are dozens of amazing vintage models to drool over.