456 vs 612 vs FF

Well, I didn't even have the 575M in mind when posting but in this case this is adding insult to injury, as in ruining an otherwise wonderfully feelfull 100% Ferrari gearbox with flappy paddles... The truth hurts, sorry.

 

Timmo- About what I expected from you.

 

I have been on a few village bicycles in the past.... some were better than others, but none a keeper... ahh College, but I digress...

If anyone is passing thru Indianapolis or the area I hope you reach out. Happy to spread the gospel of Enzo

I feel very fortunate to have met many members already in person. Hopefully I can cross paths with more.

 

And it was on a weekday too! That was a fantastic gathering you helped put together. Perfect afternoon.

Ok back to the 456/612/FF conversation... i have enjoyed most of it. @ttforcefed great picture and fantastic insight on ownership of the fleets.

And fwiw... I'm not the least bit trans-phobic. I don't care how you shift gears, just enjoy your car, hopefully with some reliability

 

In the grand scheme of things this is also my view, but brand identity is of major of importance to me on exotic cars and in this regard I was just stating that things have been going steeply downhill since the early 2000s.
The fact is that cars are increasingly designed by computers which all more or less use the same methods to meet increasingly stringent safety norms and it shows in how the cars are built. The last time I sat in an F12 it felt pretty much like a BMW 1 series, and I do not see this as positive. All V12 Ferraris since the 599 have a ridiculously tall hood line to respect some norm on pedestrian collision and all their front ends look terribly boxy, meaning the beautiful sleek lines of the 550/575 front end will probably never be bettered.

Anyway, apologies if my comments came out as a little harsh.

 

Do the Porsche DCTs have the same issues as Ferrari ones? Are they both made by the same company?

 

This comedy gold has gone tragically under appreciated.

 

Porsche was company which basically invented modern DCT. There had been several designs done already decades ago but Porsche got ball rolling on modern time. They just call it PDK. Porsche Doppel Kupplungen getriebe as name says. They worked on it already in mid eighties for Group C racers, 956 and 962. They had H-J Stuck try it on road in 928. At the time it wasn't ready for average consumer. Electronics and mechanical controls weren't there yet to automate it for production use.

Eventually VW wanted to use DSG, DirektSchaltGetriebe 20+ years ago in Golf to have automatic with more efficiency than traditional torque converter automatic boxes. On early VW boxes there was bearing issue mainly in taxi use in northern Europe. Taxies are kept running on neutral gear when outside temps are low to keep interior warm and engine ready to go. There was design flaw in oiling for one bearing. It did run dry eventually when car was standing still and there weren't enough oil splashing around. So there was clear design flaw. It was so specific that they just didn't realize to think that scenario during development.

Story goes that when Ferrari was thinking about DCT for California they wanted to check out that Golf setup. In return for loan of early DSG Golf and engineer to explain gearbox design VW asked to loan an Enzo. Montezemolo's personal car was loaned out and used by Bugatti to compare against Veyron which was in development at the time. Veyron DSG box design was contracted out to Ricardo in UK. Same company that did development for GM automatic into 456.

ZF makes PDK's for many Porsche models. Those Macan and Panamera models which use VW engines use VW provided boxes. AFAIK none of them are really bad and PDK's in Porsche's have robust reputation.

 

My shop is now 100 miles from Austin. Its now at my home and I do not entertain there.

 

Forget Texas; come to ST Louis!!! Closer for chicago/Michigan people too

 

I’ve never heard of a bearing issue in dcts. Is the 458 unit different? The mechanicals in the 458 are reputedly stout. It’s the sensors that fail.

My local shop said 612 is not a car that you would drive daily and rely on, it’ll always be in the shop for something. but the FF is a step function improvement on the 612 in terms of modern reliability.

How’s the back seat in the 612 vs the FF?

 

612s are pretty bullet proof if well maintained, just like 575s. FFs have had PTO issues, so careful.

 

The 456 you can rely on for everyday driving

 

I agree...I til today my 456GT has been pretty bullet proof. I have not driven her in a while and she was misfiring quite a bit. So I took her home and I'll troubleshoot this weekend. Other than today, it's been oil.changes ....thought it is anout time for a belt change..coming up on 10K miles since full 30k mile service (at about 36k miles by prior owner)

 

Maybe it’s wishful thinking but Ferrari’s interest in pre-owned and vintage cars have grown in the later years. Not only selling them through the dealer network, but also certifications etc.

At some point they hopefully realise that a way to increase profit for shareholders is to make parts for their older cars.