The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

The difference being that it was made by Frazer Nash. As Denis Jenkinson said: 'a replica can only be made by the original manufacturer'.

 

Correct. This is my understanding of what the word replica was. The Aston Martin and Jaguar continuation cars are examples of replicas. All else are fakes really with varying degrees of similarity to an original. The word replica is very much misused these days.

 

Ok, so the "Frazer Nash Le Mans Replica" was made by....?

I do not think you are following, and I know perfectly well about 'Jenks', as I posted his definitions. What is your critique on my post? Or, no critique?

The Astons, Jags, and now even the Escort, tutored by AMR. They are replicas, or continuations made by....? So what were the "Frazer Nash Le Mans Replica"?

This discussion, ought to be re-started under the title:

"Correct definition of all adjectives of the term 'replica'. "Evocation, homage, tool room copy, tribute, continuation etc. to address "

Then, what the rest of the world think they are, they will post on it. It does not belong to this Thread.
This thread is about 0846, and you are not contributing to it.

Please start another thread, to please ALL definitions, and kindly stop polluting here.
My reply was only because you made a comment, and I ought not to have posted, as also pointless to the thread. Regrets

 

With JG as the owner/consignor, I would not think that any of the reputable auction houses would take the car. I would expect there to be a big issue between what the consignor would agree to as the item description and what the house believes is the description they could live with as the honorable representation as well as what their attorneys would allow to avoid claims of misrepresentation.

With a different owner/consignor the situation could be different.

 

Mecum would take it, possibly Bonhams US.

 

I agree that they, and others, would entertain taking it but the effort would come to a halt when the auction description could not be agreed to between the consignor and the house. Do you really believe that the auction house would allow the assertion of being the remains of 0846 to be made or that JG would ever agree to a total discounting of that "resurrection of the remains" to be stated?

No auction house can be obliviously to their legal exposure over misrepresentation that this consignor would insist upon.

One possibility I could see, list the car for the publicity then pull it prior to the auction and make it a private treaty sale.

 

Just list it as ‘car for sale’ and link to this thread as the auction description.

 

I haven't seen any auction houses outright lie in their descriptions, but I have seen them be entirely tolerant of "deception by omission of critical facts". The two examples that come to mind (both pretty old now) are an F40 that (according to a very reliable source) had been burned/totaled twice, and that wasn't mentioned in the listing (there was only some obtuse comment about mileage not being accurate). Another example was a listing of a 330GT Series 1 car that had the front end converted to series 2, and there was no mention of the bodywork conversion in the listing. Just the standard boilerplate descriptions of series one cars, and series two cars, and then pictures of what looked like a Series 2 car in all the pics, but it was a Series 1 (4-speed overdrive, floor pedals, etc). The listing did say "series 1" on the top line of the listing, but all the pics shouted "Series 2" without any mention of bodywork. Nobody who didn't have knowledge of 330 GT's would have picked up on the fact the body had been converted. Neither of those listings should have been allowed in my opinion, but the auction houses apparently had no issues with them.

It seems like there's a lot of "deception by omission" allowed by the auction houses, but I don't follow the auctions that closely, so it would be interesting to hear what those who do follow them closely think.

 

Greatest P00P car thread EVER!

 

Have you ever read a Mecum description? It wouldn't matter, their star cars rarely seem to sell.

 

The better auction houses such as RM, Goodings and generally Bonhams invest in fully describing lots, warts and all because they value both sellers and buyers. They are the gold standard. Some don't, I remember one of the second tier Monterey sales offering a $20+ mm Ferrari with a mere copy and paste of the barchetta.cc history of the car. Mecum generally just adds a very basic list and some are even worse. Some European auction houses like Artcurial get model experts such as Laugier with Bugattis to do full research and they are great but other lots, not so much.

In some respects its pointless because nobody is playing at the higher level without either being an expert themselves or hiring someone with the expertise, if they don't have the time. This is why THJ, Kidston, Marcel and so many others, both dealers and noted experts are out there buying on behalf of clients.

 

A not 'easy' arrangement. You can be certain of that. Treading on thin ice by all parties. We can arrange for the potential auction
to be held in the now slightly infamous El Salvador auction (big) house.

Regards, Alberto

 

Answered here due to restrictions on bringing up the subject of this thread anywhere but here.

Alberto, I do not want to sound negative towards you but you were posting drivel and contributing absolutely nothing to this thread and I am not the only one to have been annoyed by it. Then you actually insulted the thread, and therefore the contributors to it, by stating that it was a thread about nothing, which as far as I am concerned was extremely disrespectful with no thought to the people who have contributed to it. It has been said before but if you had read any of this thread you would know that Mr Glickenhaus would never have got his P4 replica Classiche Certified and he was very vocal about that. There were statements by JG that Ferrari had thoroughly investigated the car, which implied that they had physically inspected it but they had done no such thing. He stated that Ferrari had created dispositive documents in the post here and that he would publish them in a few months from that post but it was all BS of course and he published nothing.

My asking if 3765 LM has been Classiche Certified, or applied for, is a very different thing, as that information has not been posted on this forum, or anywhere that I have actually taken the time to look and search, which is something you never did to find out if the JG/Piper P4 had been certified.

The bad manners are yours I am afraid and you did not praise Ing. Forghieri's letter to me. You actually made fun of it. I am actually a very polite and respectful person with good manners in the company of polite and respectful people but you only think you are polite and respectful with good manners but the reality is you have proved to be none of those things. Anyway, have a lovely day.

 

[QUOTE="... I do not want to sound negative towards you but you were posting drivel and contributing absolutely nothing to this thread and I am not the only one to have been annoyed by it. Then you actually insulted the thread, and therefore the contributors to it, by stating that it was a thread about nothing, which as far as I am concerned was extremely disrespectful with no thought to the people who have contributed to it.

The bad manners are yours I am afraid and you did not praise Ing. Forghieri's letter to me.[/QUOTE]

I thought you had me on "ignore", but who cares

Nevertheless, as besides your delusional traits, I would like to quote my reply to you, about Ingegnere Forghieri letter, and allow 'smarter' people decide if I DID NOT praise your 'El Supremo traits'.

Ingegnere Forghieri letter to the P4 'expert': (translation )

"Most Kind Mr. Robertson
I think you are the greatest P4 expert in existence. The series of photos you sent me gave me enormous pleasure, in particular that of the 412 s/n854, first naked and then under restoration. However, I must point out to you that both the Glinkenhaus car and the real P4 s/n 0858 do not have the tubing that you indicate with the red arrows in photo no. 4(412 P s/n0854) while they have the tubing that you always indicate with the arrows in photo n 3(dp3 arrows).
This different solution is due to the differences between the 412 and 330 engines. The posterior of the chassis of Glinkenhaus' fake P4 was made new and these details could not escape the bodymakers, who had already built real P4s. It is in the anterior section of the chassis which has not been redone,
which seems to me to be the greatest distance from truth.
You demonstrate that Glinkenhaus' car is not an original P4 with your photos relative to the engine,
and also the position of Ferrari itself, who denied the number that Glinkenhaus is very fond of, and my own negative conviction and what others have asserted should not lead one to believe that this car can be considered original.
I could not go to Sicily for health and work reasons, but I will be in Monte Carlo. I tried to shed light on the two types of chassis to avoid you ulterior comments
and problematic issues.

Thank you for everything with infinite cordiality and respect.

Mauro Forghieri"

My humble translation, and reply to your scatological statement, "that you did not praise Ing. Forghieri's letter to me. You actually made fun of it"

PS. Personally, I cannot dare comment more, as it seems from the above letter. that Mr. Robertson enjoys Ing. Forghieri utmost respect/due diligence.

Recognizing someone of his stature, and involvement/management, with these cars, ought to pay respect to his opinions. They are very clear and concise,
and should recognize that to be told by Ing. Forhieri: "I think you are the greatest P4 expert in existence."

This, is a great recognition to Mr. Robertson.

The only irony I perceive, is "the number that Glinkehaus (sic) is very fond of", I think it is a typical Italian comment of derision.

Remember my 'little' story? Of his triumphal entrance via a grand boat, in Lake Como, at the Villa d'Este Concours, where all (most) the 'conoscenti' said...
che stronzo...

Regards, Alberto"

So, you shame of the English speaking race (not me, as you so kindly said it was my 2nd language), what is it that you don't you understand of my praise to you ?

Please go back to your cave, and please stop your lunatic's quotes / ramblings, as I will expose you on every one, as I just did.

 

Steven (@miurasv),

I recommend putting Alberto on ignore.

Alberto (@swift53)

Please stop trolling Steven.

One week site ban and one month thread ban applied.

All the best,
Andrew.

 

So, back to the car. Would the car be eligible for vintage racing in Europa or the Americas?

I personally would love to see Jim's car being used as it was intended to be, whatever one may wish to label it. I sort of think he, or someone should be racing the **** out of it and enjoying what it is.

 

https://www.propertycasualty360.com/2016/04/25/victorias-secret-founder-settles-lawsuit-over-rare/

Bonhams' descriptions are entertainment at best. The only thing "golden" is the facade.

 

330 GT 2+2 7467 S1 4HL sold by RM Sotheby's at Villa Erba in 2015. See here. Pictures are gone but the RM description is still on line.

Image Unavailable, Please Login

 

Wrong side vents for Series 2 or did some of them use Series 1 vents? Also that rocker panel (sill) looks funky

 

It's the nose with the single headlights each side and the different indicator lamps from a Series 2 car that have been grafted on to this Series 1 car that originally had 4 headlamps with no mention of it in the description, and this was @peterp's issue. Series 2 330 GT 2+2s did not have the vents as on this car and came with the vents as on a 330 GTC, most 275 GTS and later 500 Superfast.

 

Here is an old post regarding the "(massive) deception by omission" F40 listing: https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/posts/142562803/

 

Shocking. It's been stated publicly that there was a loss of a life historically, in a very much more expensive car that has been sold in recent times. If true, I wonder did the seller declare the tragic history?

 

Mecum when made aware of the cars history would disclose it. I have sold millions of dollars worth of cars with them. They would absolutely disclose the issues.

Almost every auction house today would.

The liability is much much much too high.

 

Some sellers don't even know or care about the history of their object.

Marcel Massini

 

They have? When have Ferrari legally had the chance to crush this car? JG is misrepresenting the car, but he's not stupid... he won't let them anywhere close to the car.

They have had the chance to dispute his allegations, but (presumably because of his penchant for litigation) have not formally. Again, it's not their job to prove Jim's wild claims... it's his, and he has demonstrably failed.

I double dog dare Jim to send it to the factory for inspection to force their hand.