Dry sumped Ferrari engine entire crankcase ventilation system diagrams? | FerrariChat

Dry sumped Ferrari engine entire crankcase ventilation system diagrams?

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by AlpenJäger1914, Apr 22, 2025.

Tags:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

  1. AlpenJäger1914

    Jan 15, 2021
    31
    Hello, does anybody have diagrams or schematics that show how the entire crankcase ventilation system works in any random dry sumped Ferrari engine? For dry sumped street cars i cant find much information on the internet, so i thought maybe someone here has diagrams or could give a rundown of how they work overall

    Thanks in advance
     
  2. Rifledriver

    Rifledriver Three Time F1 World Champ

    Apr 29, 2004
    36,890
    Cowboy Capitol of the World
    Full Name:
    Brian Crall
    All the parts diagrams do and they are on line.
     
  3. AlpenJäger1914

    Jan 15, 2021
    31
    thanks a lot, i found one for the F355 now in the parts diagrams. But also there is no pcv valve on these. How does it adjust the amount of crankcase vapors going back into the intake depending on the throttle position when it doesnt have a pcv valve? Thats whats puzzling my mind right now :)
     
  4. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,638
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    #4 Steve Magnusson, Apr 22, 2025
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2025
    Depends on where the oil vapors are routed to go back into the intake system. On most (older) F that I'm familiar with, the oil vapors are conveyed into the intake system upstream of the throttle plates (so low or no vacuum conditions always = no PCV needed). On most cars with a PCV valve, the oil vapors are conveyed into the intake system downstream of the throttle plates (so low/no or very high vacuum conditions can exist necessitating the need for the PCV to limit the flow at high vacuum). Not related to being dry-sump or wet-sump.
     
  5. AlpenJäger1914

    Jan 15, 2021
    31
    I see now thank you so much for the explanation :). One thing im still wondering, dont most cars put it under the throttle so that they can use intake manifold vacuum to pull the vapors from the crankcase during idling and part throttle etc operations where there is intake vacuum pulling them out from the crankcase. If you connect it above the throttle blades, then wouldnt there be no vacuum and just be at atmospheric pressure even at idle. In that case what exactly would be evacuating the crankcase vapors and making them go to the top of the throttle blades. Is it the scavenge pump at the sump pulling the vapors and sending them to the intake above the throttle blades?

    Thanks in advance
     
  6. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,638
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Don't disagree at all, and think that most modern cars do put it downstream of the throttle plate(s), and that by having it upstream of the throttle plate(s) that often the oil vapor blowby would just be "blowing" into the airbox rather than being "sucked" out of the crankcase. However, on an engine with no common intake plenum (like a multi-carb or multi throttle body F), there is no single easy place to be downstream of the throttle plate(s) and affect all the carbs/TBs equally.

    I guess that you could have an awesome scavenging pump that could also pull out the vapors along with the liquid oil, but that seems way over-designed to me (and it would be better to just have a small auxiliary air pump to evacuate the crankcase vapors and always have a vacuum in the crankcase, if desired). You can see here on the dry-sump 308 system that they "blow" the crankcase vapors into the top of the oil tank and then over into the airbox:

    https://www.ferrariparts.co.uk/diagram/ferrari/308-gtb-1976-fibreglass/014-blow-by-system
     
    AlpenJäger1914 likes this.
  7. AlpenJäger1914

    Jan 15, 2021
    31
    Oh yeah that makes sense, i havent thought about the ITB setup until now and i can see why they put it above the throttle blades in those cars. So the "driving factor" of those crankcase vapors in the itb engines with the piping to the top of the throttle blades comes from just pure piston movement and some blowby combined together just moving all that air from crankcase to the top of the throttle blades if i understood correctly?
    Which makes me wonder in that case why people bothered with road draft tubes at all in the past to provide the "suction" to remove those crankcase vapors if they could have just connected a line from crankcase into the top of the throttle blades.
     
  8. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,638
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    Can't disagree that having a road draft tube going from the valve cover down to near the ground or running a simple hose from the valve cover into the air filter housing would've been about the same functionality for the crankcase venting, but the road draft tube was probably less expensive (if more messy for the environment) -- only one connection required. I do think (on a car with a common intake plenum) the modern PCV system (oil vapors from the crankcase into the intake manifold and filtered air from the air cleaner into the crankcase) is a remarkably simple, and clever, passive system.
     
    Ferrari Tech and AlpenJäger1914 like this.
  9. wmuno

    wmuno Formula Junior
    Silver Subscribed

    Dec 24, 2007
    522
    Wilmette, Illinois
    Full Name:
    Bill Muno
    On my 330 GTC vitntage V-12 I have 2 systems. At idle with the throttles almost closed, there is a vacuum system to route the vapors into the intake runners below the throttles. With the throttles open, the vapors are routed into the air cleaner to be sucked into the engine with the incoming air.
     
    AlpenJäger1914 likes this.
  10. AlpenJäger1914

    Jan 15, 2021
    31
    I see thank you. One last question sorry for spamming too much. In dry sump engines, is the crankcase air replaced by a fresh charge of air coming from a breather like in wet sump engines? As far as i know wet sump engines do that to not create lower pressure in the crankcase which could pull oil to the pcv valve or put lot of pressure on the seals and collapse them and make them leak. Since lets say the F355 has a dry sump already with low pressures in the crankcase and the seals etc being designed for that specifically, im guessing they dont need to breathe in fresh air from a valve cover to fill the crankcase to keep a stable pressure in there? Because i also found F355 workshop manual and in there it doesnt seem to have a breather line going to the crankcase. Only outlet lines from valve covers going to the dry sump tank and the oil seperator

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  11. AlpenJäger1914

    Jan 15, 2021
    31
    So im guessing thats very similar to this schematic from the Opel Kadett OHV engine but with a dry sump instead of wet sump like the opel.
    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  12. Steve Magnusson

    Steve Magnusson Two Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa

    Jan 11, 2001
    26,638
    30°30'40" N 97°35'41" W (Texas)
    Full Name:
    Steve Magnusson
    No, it has nothing to do with wet-sump vs dry-sump. When the vacuum source for evacuating the crankcase is the airbox (like that 355 design or 308), the vacuum level is so low that no fresh air intake path to the crankcase is required as even if a small vacuum appears in the crankcase = that's kind of a good thing. When the vacuum source is below the throttle plates (like on that 330 example mentioned or your Opel example) = then a filtered, fresh air intake path is required for high vacuum/low blowby conditions (to avoid sucking debris past the seals and/or damaging the seals).

    That Opel drawing is a little wishy-washy as it shows arrows indicating that sometimes air flows from the air cleaner to the thing on top of the valve cover and other arrows showing sometimes air flows from the thing on top of the valve cover to the air cleaner -- like there are two different modes.
     
    AlpenJäger1914 likes this.
  13. AlpenJäger1914

    Jan 15, 2021
    31
    #13 AlpenJäger1914, Apr 23, 2025
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2025
    I see thanks. Yes the opel picture shows 2 operations. The german workshop manual says that on part throttle operation all the crankcase vapors go to the intake manifold with fresh air coming from the breather connected to the air filter, but when applying full throttle the blow by increases so much that it forces the crankcase vapors to not only go into the intake like in part throttle mode but also exit out the second hole at the top connected to the air filter which normally acts as the source of fresh breather air during part throttle operations. The PCV wiki page also talks about this and says that these type of systems are "closed" pcv systems where during full throttle the escaping vapors still end up in the intake because the breather is connected to air filter so that when with blow by the vapors exit from the breather they get sucked back into the engine along with regular air that goes to the air filter that then reaches cylinders. Wiki also says that "open" pcv systems use the oil filler cap as the breather hole and so in those systems during full throttle due to too much blowby, some of the vapors will go out of the oil filler cap area. The 1.6 pinto engine from my 76 ford taunus also has an open pcv system like that i think. Around the oil filler cap area gets a bit damped with oil from some of the vapors exiting thru the cap under full throttle.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    Image Unavailable, Please Login

    There is actually a better diagram in the workshop manual of my car for the ford kent engine used in the british cortinas. Both are open pcv systems i think

    Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
  14. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jun 10, 2007
    6,729
    Lake Villa IL
    As for the F355, I don't know for a fact how Ferrari intended it to work. Maybe there is literature on that but I don't know.

    So the following is my opinion on how it works.

    The oil pump is 2 stage and scavenges oil from the pan back to the dry sump tank. No idea on it's volume/capability but if appropriately sized that would assist with evacuating crankcase pressure.

    Valve covers are tied together and vent to the dry sump tank.

    In order to describe the system I should explain that within the lower intake plenums there is an integrated but divorced chamber that is a vacuum block.

    A hose from a port under each throttle plate attaches to it.

    The idle air control motors also attach to it -and- the plenum above the throttle plates to control idle airflow.

    2 ports go to evap solenoids. (mine were leaking horribly)

    2 ports tee together and ventilate the air/oil chamber(seperator?) which is the oil filter housing.

    (I think) the oil filter base/housing is a chamber designed to separate oil/air (or maybe just a convenient junction point).


    The top of the dry sump tank is vented to the top of this housing.

    From that housing-

    2 hoses vent it to the intake plenums. Into the area where the inlet stacks are so no vacuum.

    As previously mentioned then a small hose goes to a T and then to the vacuum blocks on the lower plenums.

    At the very bottom there is another hose which leads to a one way check valve and then to the side of the engine block/oil pan.

    This part I'm the most unsure of what it's for but my guess is, it restricts air -into- the crankcase if everything is functioning properly but allows excess crankcase pressure to escape to the oil filter housing if there is say detonation or something else resulting in a positive pressure differential between the lower crankcase and it's paths to the valve covers.

    Photo 1- hoses from throttle bodies to vacuum block
    Photo 2- Idle control, one per bank
    Photo 3- Valve cover vent, one per bank tied together
    Photo 4- Dry sump tank. Lower hose from valve covers. Upper going to oil filter housing.
    Photo 5- Oil filter housing. Line pointed out is from top of dry sump tank.


    Image Unavailable, Please Login
    Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
     
    Qavion and AlpenJäger1914 like this.
  15. AlpenJäger1914

    Jan 15, 2021
    31
    Thanks so much for the message and the pictures they look great and your explanation also made sense to me :)
     
    INTMD8 likes this.
  16. INTMD8

    INTMD8 F1 Veteran
    Owner Silver Subscribed

    Jun 10, 2007
    6,729
    Lake Villa IL
    Too late to edit but see I didn't describe the oil pump well.

    What I meant to say is it's 2 stages of scavenge. So 2 separate pump stages and pick-ups scavenge the oil/crankcase pressure at the bottom of the pan and send it to the dry sump tank.

    Oil in the dry sump tank is then available to feed the inlet side of the oil pump pressure stage.
     
    AlpenJäger1914 likes this.

Share This Page