First 100% electric Ferrari in 2025 - confirmed

Yes, most enthusiasts want a practical daily driver. (Not me. My Lusso is the most practical car I've ever owned. But I know I'm the exception).

EVs make sense as practical daily drivers.

Ferrari should not be in the practical daily driver business.

 

The question is whether the Ferrari brand can expand to cover an offering, that is, on its face, and as you go deeper still, not emotional, not passionate. I think no. That is not Ferrari. But, what matters is what the people running the company think, and we’re going to find out.

 

so, since the 'watch' comparison is so common, what if Rolex/etc made an Apple Watch competitor, would it sell? would it sell at the same (list) price as their current watches?

seems the answer is not likely and definitely not

now, imagine Rolex/etc only made Apple Watch competitor and could no longer make their current watches, would Rolex continue to exist?

seems the answer is definitely not

...same with Ferrari

 

The watch comparison is interesting. My mind goes to when they released the Apple Watch, they also launched a very pricy "Edition" version, which was supposed to be super fancy, and it had a nice leather strap and featured exclusive digital faces you could not have on the other Apple Watch, otherwise it was the same watch. If I remember correctly, the pricing was several thousands of dollars for the Edition models. They did not sell at all, because an Apple Watch, or other similar digital smart watch, is more of an appliance or tool, as opposed to a piece of fancy jewelry for the wrist, which is what I see most high end watches being. There is an element of emotional engagement to these things, people make a real bond with them. And it's more than a nice watch face or nice leather band, which the failure of the Apple Watch Edition proves.

To my way of seeing things, I think there is not much differentiation between one EV and another- surely, there are different seats or screens, but the experience of driving an EV will be very similar no matter the brand. And although I think an EV can be effective transportation in the right circumstances, they are not emotionally engaging. At least so far. Maybe someone will prove it wrong. Hyundai has that interesting Ionic 5N model, but even that, it comes across to me as as not authentic.

Maybe they will prove us wrong, but I'm skeptical that Ferrari, or anyone, can make an engaging, emotional, EV.

I think a Ferrari should always be designed around an engine.

 

The only 'ace' EVs have is high horsepower ratings, but as with Rimac, too much/unlimited power is not going to help sell the rides...it is not enough to overcome the pointlessness of EV hyper cars.

 

Even there the sales have been very soft, to put it kindly. I don't know this, but I think Porsche pulled the 918 successor as it was apparently going to be an EV only supercar. The problem for the manufacturers is power is now a commodity. It is the experience that is prized.

 

Bravo !

 

@peterp



based on Stanford University research...

 

I have to admit, this is full of facts. And nothing is taken out of context. You have a discerning eye for "gold standard" research.

 

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My post was sarcasm

 

Don't be shy, please post your full rebuttal, what is your counterpoint or published research?

To assist, here are links to the research referenced by the video:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306261921016214

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41560-022-01105-7

 

Grid not being able to handle 100% EV implementation is not really new information, is it?

 

I'll give you one example, you figure out the rest. The studies are accurate, his interpretation of those studies is wrong and he is intentionally twisting them out of context.

Here's your example: A 1:40, your hero claims that the electrical load of charging a single EV at home is "8 to 12 hours of constant power draw at up to 22kw".

8 to 12 hours of charging at 22kw is between 176kwh (8 hours) and 264kwh (12 hours).

A Tesla Model Y battery is 75 kwh. He is lying to you. A lot. Throughout the video -- though I don't have time to explain it to you point by point, and you wouldn't listen anyway.

 

Oh, I see, well, charging is not 1:1 with charger ability especially when going from 0 to 100%.

And the Tesla onboard charger (as it converts AC to DC) will limit the speed, throttle it down to about half of 22kw, it is not designed to support 22kw, so, it will take just as long as a charger with half that output...you have to use a Tesla Supercharger to get high speed transfer (i.e. direct DC->DC charging bypassing the onboard AC->DC processing).

https://www.tesla.com/support/charging/onboard-charger

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So, the 22kw charger is pointless, the car cannot handle its maximum output rating.

further evidence;

https://www.tesla.com/support/charging

Up to 44 miles of range per hour of charge
(Model Y has 337 miles of range so over 7 hours to charge at home with Level 2)
(the Tesla wall connector cited above is listed at 11.5kW (48A)

https://www.tesla.com/support/charging/wall-connector/power-management#tesla-accordion-v2-8782-the-charge-rate-to-my-vehicle-keeps-changing.-is-this-normal

# # #

additional backgrounders...

https://www.nbpower.com/media/1492448/ev-handbook_july-2023.pdf


https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/what-does-kw-and-kwh-mean-for-electric-cars

Level 2 charging is a much more practical solution, using either a home or public charging station. A Level 2 charger ranges from 7-19 kW of power and can charge most EV batteries in as little as six or as long as 12 hours.

However, with Level 2 charging, an EV's onboard charger comes into play. An onboard charger manages the amount of electricity that flows to the battery. Onboard chargers typically range from 6.6-11 kW, which limits the charging speed regardless of the charging station's power rating. The higher the onboard charger rating, the faster Level 2 charging can occur.


https://www.transportation.gov/rural/ev/toolkit/ev-basics/charging-speeds

After 80 percent charge charging speed slows as the battery gets closer to full to prevent damage to the battery. Therefore, it is more cost- and time-efficient for EV drivers to use direct current (DC) fast charging until the battery reaches 80 percent, and then continue on their trip. It can take about as long to charge the last 10 percent of an EV battery as the first 90 percent.

 

????????

Yes, I know all that. Not sure why you're even posting it.

The problem is that your expert is telling you that 8 to 12 hours of charging at 22kw at home is the norm.

He is lying to you.

Period.

 

I presume your next response will be backed up by actual facts and links to prove...

For example:

I think your knowledge is very weak, that's why I am posting.
(for example, until I posted you thought Teslas could be charged at 22kW and now you say you "know all that")...

Here's what that video said, you are the one making things up:

1:39
here we have 8 to 12 hours of
1:43
constant power draw at up to 22 kW
1:46
that's 11 kettles going full blast all


"up to 22 kW"

never said that is the norm..

however, 22kW at 240V is 91.6A, many homes could not support that level of service at all even if everything else is turned completely off (those with 100A service, those with 200A service could, but just for one car)

but, there are many EVs that do directly support 22 kW charge level:

AUDI:

https://www.audi-mediacenter.com/en/press-releases/audi-further-improves-the-e-tron-product-lineac-charging-with-22-kw-of-power-greater-driving-convenience-13361

PORSCHE:

https://www.porscheontario.com/range-and-charging-speed-of-the-porsche-taycan/

KIA:

https://www.kia.com/eu/about-kia/experience-kia/technology/electrification/electric-car-charging-times/

etc


Point is, EVs are not the end-all, be-all solution for everyone, not even for 50% of the general population that has a car.

All the chatter about home charging falls on "deaf ears" as many do not have any such ability to home charge in any case much less those homes with multiple cars, home charging would be a non-starter, your local electric utility is not going to upgrade you to 500A or higher service level (so you can charge 3+ cars and try to run your home on what remains...).

 

Does anyone remember the Total Electric Medallion that you could get if your house was total electric? My grandparents had one. It was round -about four inches in diameter. It was a thing back in the mid 1960’s…

 

I have two EVs (porsche and audi). At home the audi charges at most about 8kW and the porsche at most about 17kW. The audi link is from 2020. They no longer support that rate in the current vehicles. the porsche requires an optional on-board 19.6kW charger, which I have (I made sure to option it but most cars do not have this option). However, you also need a higher amp circuit from the wall, which I also had installed, and still it doesn't come anywhere near 22kW. Don't know about Kia but I would be surprised if they have faster charging than porsche and audi.

 

I'm not sure what you don't get. The presenter is the one implying that 8 to 12 hours at up to 22kw it is the norm for every EV. As you know, and state, 22kw is virtually impossible at home, so saying it as if it's not unusual is an outright lie. 8 to 12 hours at that rate is charging the 3-4 times the battery capacity -- that's also a massive implied lie. Nobody would say it as he did except to intentionally create an extremely false impression (he includes the "up to" make it technically not a lie, even though the "up to" amount is a lie at home).

Here's the Transcript cut & pasted from YouTube: You might have a kettle at 2 kW for 10 minutes or you might have a 1 kW fan on for a couple of hours but here we have 8 to 12 hours of constant power draw at up to 22 kW that's 11 kettles going full blast all night that's like adding several extra houses to every single home that has an EV charging on the driveway.
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He further diminishes his "up to 22kW" disclaimer by adding "that's 11 kettles going full blast all night". And again, "all night" at 11 kettles (aka 22kw) is a massive lie.

EV is not the end-all be-all for everybody. Not sure why you think anybody said that, and certainly not a Ferrari EV. If you can't charge at home, you definitely should not buy any EV today.

We already had large expansion of EV's for years when Tesla's had long waiting lists and people were buying 5-year FSD licenses for $12k just to get a faster delivery time. For a long time it was a the hottest selling car, and there were zero systemic grid issues. Why? Because the grid expands in response to demand. There are no mysteries whatsoever on how to increase grid capacity, but there is a massive cost issue in doing it too soon. If anybody pre-built the grid for future EV expansion, everybody's electric bill would double or so for the same usage because the power company would have extremely expensive excess grid capacity sitting idle. When there is a breakthrough on battery cost and production efficiency, then EV production can scale at fast rates, and that's when grid capacity will expand -- and not a second sooner. Anybody building grid capacity in advance of demand is an idiot, because there are roadblocks to large-scale EV production today in battery production, regardless of what EV expansion ambitions are.

The battery cost and production issues aren't a factor for a Ferrari EV, which will have a production rate that is a tiny fraction of affordable EV production. I think the grid will also be able to handle the onslaught of Ferrari EV's .

 

We really need to get your link count up...

I guess your facts remain disconnected from reality, there never is a 1:1 charging ratio, that is impossible. There are always "energy losses" during battery charging.

Here's a link regarding EV Charging losses:
https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/why-doesnt-your-battery-get-all-the-energy-you-pay-for

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To review why grid failures are not yet notable:

The Los Angeles metro area has approximately 293,000 electric vehicles, the most out of any U.S. city.
(reported here)

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But, Los Angeles county has over 7M cars and light trucks
https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/uploads/2020/06/2019-Estimated-Vehicles-Registered-by-County-1.pdf

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Overall, EV ownership is very light (especially when you consider that, overall, 280M cars and light trucks are registered in USA)

As of September 2024:
Electric Vehicle Registrations per State:

https://afdc.energy.gov/data/10962

In other words, there simply are not enough EVs just yet to cause widespread grid problems...especially outside of CA,FL,TX where EV ownership is extremely low

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And then there's this:

https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/ev-charging/a-big-barrier-to-californias-electric-truck-goals-a-backlogged-power-grid

https://calmatters.org/environment/2023/01/california-electric-cars-grid/

As for Ferrari EV, let's see how many of those actually end up being purchased and used rather than stored somewhere (i.e. purchased only to comply with Ferrari's demands to earn access to more desirable models). I guess Ferrari will need to first build them, I still think that is years away (i.e. customer deliveries) regardless of whenever the reveal occurs.

 

We really don't need any links, your expert is absolutely lying. He's lying (twisting a data point radically out of contest) when he say's you can't charge at night. The whole thing is a carefully crafted lying.

No, they are not disconnected from reality at all. Yes, there are losses, but they are trivial at 220/240 (and less at SuperChargers). Car & Driver averaged 95% charging efficiency at 240v in their real-world long-term test. 99% at SuperChargers.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a36062942/evs-explained-charging-losses/ ==> Our long-term 2019 Tesla Model 3 Long Range Dual Motor test car is currently averaging 95 percent efficiency from a Level 2 Tesla 240-volt wall connector.

Your guy is trying to make it sound like 8-12 hours charging at 22kw at home is normal -- it's not (even considering charging efficiency).

Yes. This is exactly why the grid has not been scaled for massive EV volume. The grid will scale as EV's scale -- not sooner than that. If we were to scale for future EV capacity now -- while EV production is significantly limited by battery cost and production efficiency issues -- having that massively overbuilt capacity sit idle will double or triple our electric bill with no benefit. Nobody knows exactly when technology will advance to reduce battery cost and increase battery efficiency, so it makes no sense whatsoever to scale power production now. When somebody finally solves the battery issues, the grid will ramp up quickly, and the expansion will be paid for by consumption.

 

I’ll just pipe in to say if anyone thinks the grid can be quickly upgraded, we need to examine compared to what? In comparison to the Geological Record, yeah it can be done quickly.

We are already unable to supply necessary power for proposed data centers - that is generation AND infrastructure…