engine out brake line question

What brake line did you cut I have some sitting around. Hit me up

 

Assuming he has a Teves system, front brakes should work w/o pump. Only way to have a hard pedal and no brakes on a Teves system is if all the ABS supply side valves are closed (valves 6, 9, 11).

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It was the left side from the block to the caliper. I replaced it from Exotic Recycling.

My system is Bosch.

 

Thank you Bob. What is the best way to check if it is the pump, fuse or relay? Are the fuses and relays in the frunk under the liner? I am no mechanic so I am trying to understand what to look for and where to start. My mechanic said they had a hard time bleeding the brakes because the pump would come on and off. There was some small rubber pieces in the brake fluids. It worked OK after the brake bleed. Them the ABS light came on and now no brakes.

 

If the ABS pump fails and there is no pressure in the system, you lose boost (servo-assistance) but the brakes still work, as noted in the Teves manual. The brakes should work even with a complete ABS pump failure, but the pedal effort will be much higher. You mention rubber pieces in the brake fluid. If you truly have no brakes at all perhaps the diaphragm in the accumulator disintegrated and some of that rubber is clogging the brake lines (or master cylinder). Assuming that the comment that the pump would come on and off means rapid cycling, that seems to suggest that this may be the case. Under normal conditions the pump should cycle when the rear brakes are bleed but but not on-off-on-off....

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Rubber brake lines start there. If fluid does not freely flush at breeders put new lines on. Then bleed until clear.

 

Thank you for your response. Does the brake system have a pump as well as the ABS system? They are saying that the psi on the pump for the brakes are at 25psi but it should be at 100psi? Once again I don't know much about working on cars so I am trying to get more information from you guys here so I have an idea of what I am up against. They are saying because the car has been sitting for so long I will need to rebuild the complete brake system and that will cost north of $10k just to get the brakes to work and about that same amount to fix the ABS? So this is why I am asking so I can make a decision to do it or just pick it up and let it be a garage queen? Thank you guy for your input so far.

 

Thank you Billybob for your response. I know you have a lot of experience with the 348. I have always wanted to drive down to join your Stooge parties. The problem is they are not getting enough pressure from the pump or to get the pump to work consistently to get the brakes flushed. Is there 2 different pumps one for the brakes and one for the ABS? Can this system be upgraded to something else? They are saying it will cost about $20k to redo the brakes and ABS if they can get all the parts? Thank you for your input.

 

There is one pump. The pump is part of the ABS system and integrated into the braking system. The pump pressurizes the system to over 2000 psi. If they are telling you 100 psi then they don't know what they are working with or there is a miscommunication.

With the Teves system the front brakes work as with a normal car. The power assist or boost is generated by the pressure from the pump. The rear brakes are also controlled by the pressure from the pump. The accumulator is used to store brake fluid at high pressure such that the pump runs intermittently only when the pressure drop below a certain value (about 2000psi). When the ABS is activated the high pressure fluid in the accumulator is also used to modulate the brakes as controlled by the valves in the picture I posted in post #27. Those valves are controlled by the ABS computer.

If the pump is not supplying the necessary pressure the ABS system is deactivated and you lose the boost for the "power brakes". Thus, you have to apply greater foot pressure to the brake pedal to stop the car but the brakes should still work.

In summary the pump provides high pressure fluid for the brake system. This high pressure fluid is used to 1) provide boost for the power brakes, 2) control the application of the rear brakes, and 3) supply high pressure fluid for the operation of the ABS system.

 

Not sure how they make that diagnosis? Often people do not severe the brake likes or clutch lines properly with engine outs. Then suck air in master. Not easy to bleed when that happens. System will work and drive with ABS system inactive. For safety brakes are a manual system first and must work without ABS. Get system to work manual first then debug the electronics.

I would pull master and bench bleed it. Be careful stroking the rod to full travel. Old master strokes in a short range. Junk builds up scratches seals now can't hold pressure. Uninformed people destroy masters all the time bleeding brakes wrong. You must ensure good master before you can do anything else. Often can't bleed master in car. Depends on how messed up the master gets from screwing around. So you gotta bench bleed...then some say if they have it out of car they open and clean master and put new seals. See. If you do it right first time you do less work.

 

If I am reading your response correctly, the car should have brakes regardless of the pump working or not because they are mechanical brakes and the booster is to assist with power brakes and ABS? This is a 1995 348 spider. Does the model year make a difference in the brake system? I really appreciate the feedback. I may have it towed to another shop?

 

They had already done the major service and put the engine back in the car. They where changing all the fluids including the brakes and that is when they discovered bleeding the brakes was intermittent. They said it took two people and about an hour to get the pump to work to bleed the brakes? After bleeding and during the test drive they noticed the brakes didn't stop the car that well. So they started looking into the brakes, they thought it was sorted and I was going to pick up the car the day. I get a call and they said there is no brakes at all and the pedal is hard? I am thinking about getting the car towed to another place for a 2nd set of eyes to see if they can figure it out. Thank you for all your input.

Do you still have your 348? I know you use to track your car. Did you upgrade to a different brake system? Don't get me wrong, when i last drove the car the brakes were fine, but if I am looking to spend $20k for new brakes and ABS I am thinking there might be a better alternative out there?

 

Correct. Your car has the Teves system. The same as my 1995 F355. It's also used on many foreign and US cars of the early 90's. For sure you should have front brakes regardless of the state of the ABS system or pump, though without power assist.

 

You get rears too just no abs. There is no "power assist" per se but vacuum assist from the big round vacuum servo aft of the master.

 

My 348 turned into a racecar but is long gone. Sean on fchat still runs in in auto-x races. When I have severed clutch and brake connections to drop the sub frame the disconnects are at the residual pressure valves. I cap them the reconnect upon replacing the subframe. I can drive the car immediately without bleeding anything. Some can't do that if those conditions above are not met. Pete for example is the latest to do this job and had to replace the clutch lines. That ment a full bleed. While I don't need to bleed a 5 yr major for me is like your shop all fluids. So replacement with bleed are part of that process. I don't know what happened in your situation but get a good clutch and brake pedal after engine outs is a common issue for diy guys. Pros don't come here much so no data there. But the more you do the engine outs the better you get at it. Unfortunately you need to find someone to go through it to solve the problem. Electronic connections are not great in 348s but the abs pump, wheel sensors are quite robust.

On the 348 key on bleed of brakes is the way to go. When you 2 man bleed the car is silent then as you bleed the pump comes on cycling clean fluid and stops as you lock down the bleeder. Key on is how you bleed a 348 to get fluid moving.

 

No vacuum assist on the Teves system. Also, according to the manuals I have the rear brakes are controlled by the high pressure "dynamic" circuit. No pressure, no rear brakes.

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You must be thinking of the Bosch system.

On a Teves system you can bleed the front brakes with key on or off by pumping the brakes, or using a pressure bleeder. For bleeding the rear brakes all you do is turn on the ignition so the pump runs, open the rear bleeder on the side to be bled and depress and hold the brake pedal slightly.

Unfortunately, non of this will solve ginracer's problem which I would bet is associated with the "small rubber pieces in the brake fluid".

 

So Does my car 1995 Feerari 348 Spider have the Teves system or Bosch system? Where would I look to confirm what system the car has? If my car has the Teve system then I should have brakes no matter what and if it is the Bosch system I have to have the power assisted pump working to get brakes?

As of right now I am going to have the car picked up and taken to another shop to check out the brakes for a 2nd opinion. They can't get me in for at least 2 weeks. I will keep you guys posted.

Thank you both John and Billybob for all your help! I value your input and it gives me a little bit of knowledge to I can let the other shop know what is going on.

 

You have the Teves system. All 348 with ABS have the Teves system. You should have front brakes but no power assist and no ABS if the pump fails.

 

All 348 have the Teves, some earlier 355 also have Teves ABS system.

The ABS pump (the only pump) needs to work and deliver pressure before you can bleed the rear brakes. The front brakes are bled normally through the master cylinder reservoir. This split ensures that you have some brakes in the even the ABS system fails. I think you need to find someone who is familiar with the Teves system to get it working. You may need to replace a component and these are now NLA.

Good luck.

 

Thank you John! I am glad to know that I do have some brakes even of the ABS pump is not working.

 

Thank you yelcab! That clarifies that I will have some brakes and that I need to get the car to another shop that knows more about the brake system. The current shop did say that a lot of the parts are NLA. Do you know what other people are doing to resolve the NLA? Are they replacing the ABS system with another system or just living without ABS?

 

Some possibilities:

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The pump portion is the most difficult to find. You can ...

1) find used one
2) find second hand pump used on T-bird, and Jaguar
3) find someone to rebuild the pump (and this is a very sketchy idea). Whoever claims they can do this is 90% fraud.

The pump used on the Jaguar "leans" the other way so you have to buy a mounting kit (produced by someone on here) to make it fit under the hood. Use the search button.

 

A little more detail:

1989-1992 Ford cars T-bird, etc

Jaguar XJS, XJ6, XJ12

Alfa Millano.

 

Have you or do you know of anyone trying this setup?