I think the difference is a dino is easy to drive and a boxer you actually have to be able to drive, and a boxer has to be driven hard to really enjoy the dirve whereas a dino is ok to pootle That's then a thinner buyer pool. Add to that a dino has 60s styling cues. The peopel who pay big $ for ferraris are notional "collectors" many cant drive in any real fashion and the car is sculpture. A dino is "approved" sculpture whereas a BB is an original work, for those who buy badges and name but otherwise lack true taste a Dino is the way to go over BB. Not to knock dinos theyre great, just explaining why Dino demand is so much greater, they have the "collector class", are easy to use and are "approved". To buy a boxer you must be a car connoisseur and able to really drive, all of which are the hallmarks of those who traditionally bought ferraris back in the day, before there was the "branding" concept. One thing i've noticed, is most real collectors(as opposed to buyer hoarders) have a BB, and in time the others will catch on that no ferrari as art "collection" is complete without one. Once the boxer is approved, on the list so to speak, it will skyrocket, the relative difficulty of driving will be irrelevant because the "collector" with some exceptions dosent really buy the cars toi drive. As an aside at the breakers concurs whatever its called the boxers there were clearly stylistically in the art category, as opposed to the crass newer stuff, (Speciale being the exception) At 200k you're prepared to use your BB in a way that you wouldnt at 600k. At some point these cars will become too expensive to really just DRIVE, then they'll be like 288's stuck on a concors lawn. Rejoice where we are now.
Funny when I bought my BBI in 93 a new 348 spider cost more and the nearly 328 was 10k less. I started witht he euro 308qv idea, couldn't find a great one, tried the 328 which just had no go, felt like damp squib and not compelling. As soon as I drove the boxer down the road, it was like, this is the rel thing. For 10K more(borrowed from father) got the boxer. Of the more modern Ive driven a Tr which was fun but didnt feel like it had huge power or as good in gear repose as the BBit, a 456M manual for a 400 mile day and it felt like nothing special with overboosted cadillac steering and so sos ride and very linear acceleration without magic. A 599 on track which felt like it dint want to turn or brake and you were sitting up high, but was quick, and a 458 which had no tq and ok steering but was fun in the upper range, although the brakes truly were wooden. Ive ridden in a 812 and the power was epic cant comment on the rest. Nothing newer i tried felt compelling, although for Fl i can see where a 512 Tr may be the choice cause Its bigger more visible (a good thing in an suv woprld) has ac that works and more whack. Frankly Mid engined the car today that impresses most is a z06 vette, yeah the ass is too big, yeah the interior is a tarts handbag, but in f cars we overlook a lot too. In exotic land the Hurricane impresses, and I wouldn't sell the BBi to get either of those. Maybe a z06 and a BBi covers the bases. The 296 looks nice and the speciale version better, but its also an all digital dash car and after 5 years will be ruinous to keep running. The MC20 looks better in pics than reality, but tis the looker, too bad about the weight and motor, now imagine a MC20 with a z06 motor. If i were spending over 200k on a new car the new aston vantage imo has it going on. In fact Id say more and more aston is getting its game on and building the type of stylish driver centric more raw cars ferrari used to make. As to notional performance differences between the aston Mclaren and ferrari, thats pretty much a bar boast, theyre all exceedingly quick on road and the performance differences are practically speaking academic and pointless. . They all seemed to miss some of the essential magic.
My Boxer is like a little brother. We know each other WELL & go way back. There are A LOT of great memories, We wont tell.
mine feels like a great worn in leather jacket that just fits perfect. Ah youthful experiences, sticking tot he purely driving parts Ill go down a road and think to myself did i really do that in this car back then. Thats a theme in general, I think Ive on one hand slowed down in some ways speed wise, there are just some places I wont do certain things and Im just more aware of things going wrong, hitting a deer with the elise last year added to those thoughts. On the other hand quicker hand push harder on track each passing year. That all being said, during covid when no one was on the road, early spring before the leaves popped and you could see through bends 3 boxers drove the back hills of CT as god and Enzo intended. 35000 Gt will attest, there was a time not long ago when we sorta achieved vmax before being advised to pull over and leave. I also well remember decades ago using 4 lanes to save it, and also getting a (known) corner so right that between throttle and steering all 4 wheels were scabberign sideways as we came out the bend. The issue is finding the right open roads, and if you're not so young and dumb that gets harder. Might be traffic is way worse these days. Still there are times and places when it all just come together, but imagine being in pre speed restricted europe in the late 70s with a mountain to play with. These are the issues that lead me towards modern machinery, to really use a car in usa the track is best, and then you're leaning on the machine in way you dont on road. To a degree a Bb is a great road choice , because while pushing and being viceral you use much of what the car has without exceeding the bounds of sanity, whereas in a modern say a Mclaren by the time its visceral you're way past any sort of road sanity.
I had a 308QV in 2004, went to a F-club track event near Toronto and met a fellow who wanted to sell his nice, low km, never federalized '78 BB to me for under $US100k. He would even take my 308 as part trade. I was not in the market at that point but it seemed like a great deal as it was (at the time) cheaper, rarer and better looking that a Testarossa. In 2011 I was pitched a fund managed out of London that was investing in blue chip vintage cars such as the Maclaren F1. I asked what they intended to buy with more investment; one car on the list was a BB512. I went home, told my wife about the meeting and we began to look for a good example. After looking at a few in Europe and the US, I remembered the guy I met in 2004 and reached out to him. He still had the car; it took about 10 minutes on the phone for him to sell it to me at the same price he was asking in 2004. That should have been a warning. I have had it since 2011 and have rebuilt the engine, the suspension and the clutch due to age and lack of use. Car is now in excellent shape and runs well; I enjoy it. However, I can only drive one car at a time and have limited time to go for a drive - if the Countach is up for a drive the BB usually stays parked (power wise they are close but chassis wise the stock BB feels like an antique in comparison). The BB is soon moving from Toronto to Bologna where I hope to run around on some of the back roads through the hills between Bologna and Firenze. I really like it, but have given up any thoughts that it will ever appreciate in value or even be easy to sell. I know a few examples that have been for sale for more than a decade at reasonable prices. Niki Hasler, the Swiss dealer has a room full of them for sale; I understand that he has had them for years and have never heard of him selling one. No complaints; a friend loaned me his Classiche restored Dino in Dubai a few years ago for a morning drive. No thanks. What a slow, fragile thing. My diesel Gwagen will blow the doors off of it.
if you want to transform your boxer, put 17 wheel with 275 rears and 235 fronts. Its not as antique handling as you think, however as a fomer Ct owner I can also agree its nto in the same league as the Ct, but then given a CT had rose jointed suspension few cars are even today. However a boxer running appropriate modern rubber(summer tires with stiff sidewalls) will be enjoyable at speeds from 30 mph in a way a ct simply cannot be (imo ct sweetspot is 80-140) and a boxer will be more stable at higher speeds. Just my 02C. I remember boxers stick at 80-110k for decades, then they popped above 200 swept to almost 400 in 2015 and have steeled back to the low 200s. At that place the cost of putting a good car right does not make sense, thats the same place Ghiblis and misura were stuck for decades,and then one day they moved. The dino in Dubai, totaly wrong car for the place, to enjoy a diuno you need the backroads of ct or winding hills somewhere, same with a 308. Sometimes some cars catch on, the boxers time seems never to come. However their time will come. Meanwhile we see 355s rising fast, like a dino theyre easy to sue, and 355s are in so many ways the last of the more classic ferraris, their price goes up despite their extreme price to run, possibly the higher process are for the manual cars only. But ti thinka 355 paddle car is really a manual box with hydraulic actuators so a relatively straightforward conversion. Given how crap so many moderns are, and how overwrought modern supercars are, all the older stuff will rise, its going to be a thing just like vinyl records. Boxers will just take the rigth bulshitter to hype them. 90% of the crowd who buy cars for "investments" and ir "collecting" don't have a clue or care how they drive. lest face it a miura is not a great drive, but it really is art. Open both clamshells ona boxer take a pic sideview, its art too.
about 15 years ago, a friend of mine with an aston, invited me to join an aston club drive which started in Martigny, and went to Chamonix - ie over the Forclas pass. i brought the bbi for the job.....and it was epic ! so much fun to attack the corners on the way up, and really work the gearbox - without worry too much about the brakes i beat them all to chamonix by about 30-45 minutes.
The boxer inhales road pretty well. In addition to the engine music and feel, I like how the torque wants to just carry it up to whatever speed you can get away with.
If the COVID price increases did not elevate the Boxers into even $500K+ than what will? Everything was going up, much of it exponentially, and the Boxers went up a little.
This from SCM i think is a good explanation. "The average age of anew or used late model Ferrai buyer is about 40. These new owners are fanatical about new models, with little interest in classics. They are fixated on colors and options. Refinement, quality, history and value do not hit their radar. They will drop a half million dollars on mass produced model and not even look at an Enzo-era blue chip" Imo this is what happens when you have speed limits and draconian road rules. Cars made to be enjoyed being driven loose their importance and for that matter use. Cars that look wow, and can be valet parked become more interesting. The buyer profile changes too. Now its about Money and displaying it. The classics by contrast attain value as Motive Art. Most art "collectors" or buyers have no real eye or taste(i know I don't for other art forms) and they buy off a list or as advised. The Boxer is definitively motive art, its time will come.
Yes, it was quite a decade. Unfortunately many changes occurred for me as a result. That was the full enjoyment of a Ferrari, vs thinking of it as an "investment". Of all my Ferrari cars the one that always comes first to my mind was my 72 Dino cause I drove it everywhere. Same for my 73 911 set up for me by Peter Gregg who I met at the Paul Revere Race , # 59, Daytona Race (red, white & blue 911). I absolutely hated this car until had this 911 trucked to his dealership in Jacksonville to be set up correctly. How many BBI's do you currently have? I was the importer of my 84BBi. It was Silver with black lower trim. Dark blue leather interior, Off blue herring bone interior roof trim, 2 different sets of knock off's. When it arrived at the Jacksonville Port got to drive it in full European trim for the afternoon before I sent it off to Georgia to begin it's legalization. Docf
I not understand the world any more: just at BaT a 328 has been sold for 145k US $, so more than a testarossa https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1988-ferrari-328-gts-71/?utm_source=dm&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=2025-06-03 this is so strange to me
I doubt he would list a dozen BBs at a time. A friend was interested in a green one he had. Lovely car, but not worth the price sought.
Same reasons Dinos have value, easy to use and still relatively not that expensive while being great looking. The performance delta to many buyers is irrelevnt, they cant really drive anyway.
I would say that along with other cars, the average market has declined in the past 6 months. In general classic or near classic cars with very very low mileage or delivery miles seem to still fetch outlier prices, but that should be seen as a market unto itself..
This is representative of the BB market today. Prices are softer than owners want to admit, this goes for other vintage Ferrari as well.
Yep depending on the car 230-280K. Which is not bad as the price has been there for years. This car had those weirdly redone plenums so what else, but looked decent. Imo it was good sale price. Peak Bb was 2015 where a few cars hit 450k. Between 93-2012 they were under or around 100k. Stabilized since then in the 230-275 range is imo not bad.
Given the flat valuations(adjusted for inflation) the cars have declined about 35% over the last 10 years. This is true with the Enzo-era models with the exception of 206/246 Dino.
as i said in the comments over there, isnt it ironic that there are people out there buying manual 430's for $300k+ because they want to feel like they are actually driving? 14000 430's built, not to include the specials, and only 1007 bbis built... and the bb is the genuine article ! a car that enzo 'touched' . a car that took its engine from formula one. a car that ran le mans and daytona. the last hand built ferrari. the first mid engine ferrari. etc i would be embarrassed to tell people that i had spent more on a 430 than a bbi. like choosing jack and coke instead of a 25 year old Macallan, and paying the same
