Why does "everyone" prefer the 458 over the 488?

Let's not forget WHO made and designed the body of the 458. Let's not forget Who had a major influence of designing the interior of the 458. Again as said the last 8 NA engine, The sound it emits from startup to 9 thos.rpm. The over the top is the 458!

 

personally i dont really buy into the whole pininfarina thing

either the design is good or it isnt

I think the 458 is extremely beautiful but I think the 488 looks better from the side and back, the side vents are more aggressive and give a bit more to look at from the side, from the rear the 488 likewise has more definition, a bit more goin on without being too much, the 458 with the carbon strip in the back achieves the same effect but the bog standard 458 rear is also a bit more plain

Neither is ugly and neither would get kicked outta bed

Interior wise I have to give it to the 488, much more streamlined but again, not like the 458 is an ugo by anymeans.

 

I had the 458 for 3 years, the 488 for 2 and now the F8 for 2.5 so far-- and KnifeEdge saying they're all the same parts in each car just tuned slightly differently is highly generalized, simplified and exaggerated. Yes, of course, some parts are carried on to next models as any car brand does, but there is a WORLD of difference between these cars... the 488 is insanely better than the 458 in ALL ways and the F8 is just another league enitrely. These cars are NOT the 'same parts' and 'same chassis'. Ya, the original R&D is used but they are NOT the same, not at all.

 

If you think you can tell the difference between em then sure, that's just something you believe

There are people that claim they can identify the exact plot from which a burgundy was grown just from taste as well but I'm gonna call bs on that every time. Just cuz there's one or two dudes on the planet that actually can do it doesn't mean it's something that every random person can do.

You're making some pretty wild claims about things being so different on thingd which simply aren't. I don't know if you just have a propensity to believe new is simply better or you had vastly different setups or what.

Lots of people claimed they can tell the difference between a different intake or exhaust or whatever in their butt dyno too but usually there's nothing there or differences are so mild that it would be impossible. It doesn't mean you didn't feel something different, it just means it's in your head. Unfortunately unlike wine tasting you can't really have a blind test so I guess we'll never really know.

Hell, that's what these cars are MOSTLY about. You feel a certain way before you even open the door and drive em. Your experience is heavily coloured by your preconceptions.

 

If Ferrari developed the 458 power plant for one more cycle it probably would have been over 650 HP. For the size that is nuts.

 

There was room yea

458 engine still had flat tappets, if they did what they did for the 12cillindri and move to finger followers they probably could have increased VE a bit.

Just a timing thing though, McLaren went turbo and ferrari HAD to do the same.

 

If somebody drives a 458, then drives a 488, and they feel similar, that person shouldn't be driving a Ferrari.
I won't debate which is better, because that's a personal preference, and I personally love both, but they are in fact VERY different cars, and drive very differently, even though the 488 pretty much built up on a 458. But remember, about 85% of the parts are new, so it definitely doesn't surprise me that it feels so different "to me"
They also have a very different list of Pros and Cons. As I said prior...A person cross shopping them, needs to drive both, and see which feel they prefer. If they can't feel the difference, they should buy a Corolla and save a lot of money!

 

Pretty sure ferrari would go out of business if what you say is true haha

The 85% thing is very misleading because the entire engine is different and that's the single biggest factor in part count.

Like I said before. Your butt dyno isn't a very reliable indicator unless you really are a professional driver. I'm gonna go ahead and say that's 1% of ferrari owners.

I get that things being the same part can be "set up" different (alignment for example) but same part number is same part number. The entire front suspension is effectively carried over from 458 to 488. The hub is different between the standard 458 and 488 but that's cuz the 488 utilized the speciale hub and that's really only different because I think they redesigned it to be a bit lighter... It's it better yea but not in a way you'd ever feel, it's something you measure with a stop watch. The arms both upper and lower are the same P/N and sure the spring and damping rates are gonna differ but it's not like there's huge advances in setup over the past couple decades let alone the few years in between the 458 and 488. The entire rear suspension is also carried over in the same way, hub, control arms, basically everything but the springs/dampers. It's no wonder why they did this. Once you come up with a setup that has good camber control, anti lift, anti dive qualities... Why would you not raise it across your lineup? The entire line has very similar weight distribution in both longitudinal and vertical axes so you can just tune the arb stiffnes, coil spring rates, and damping curves for the particular model knowing your wheel control is already good to go. The geometry might be a little different but I doubt that it's significant (not beyond things that are changeable within normal alignment parameters anyways), it makes no sense to put all the changes on the subframe side simply to keep the control arms identical because parts sharing is cheaper.

I don't know why enthusiasts always claim they can feel minute differences.

You can't feel tenths of a second. You just can't. A blink of an eye is like 2 or 3 tenths. Reaction times of normal people are like 3 or 4 tenths. This is also assuming you're at the ultimate limit, if you're just driving around it's completely negligible.

What people can reliably differentiate is how loud the car is and for better or for worse we generally think louder = more sporty and more high pitched =more revs. People can reliably detect how hard/stiff suspension is and how much roll the car experiences. It's not at all a given that you want super stiff super flat cornering all the time.

I get that people want to justify newer is better but it's also important to note there is a difference between better design and different setup. As the cars have gotten faster (more power) over the years and tires have gotten better, setups have gone towards more stuff, more twitchy relying on electronic controls to keep it manageable. In that sense yes the newer stuff is surely "better" because you can utilize a more twitchy setup because things are more drive by wire... But isn't that the exact argument we add enthusiasts levy against the newer generations of cars? Can't have it both ways.

Anyways back to the original point of the thread. The 488 is objectively better in a lot of ways. At the moment those things might matter because of the novelty factor (faster does count for something when we're talking about things within a couple generations of whatever the newest thing is).... But after everything is 10-15 years old everyone that buys these cars for the "ooo it's fast yeah" reason leaves the market for something newer, what you're left with are people who don't care about those things that make the 488 better than the 458. No one buys a 355 because it's the fastest thing on the road.

The market has spoken with regards to this. It's not wrong, it's not correct, it is what it is. If you prefer the 488 go get it, it's a great performance for the money. If you prefer the 458 get it, it's a great deal, you're getting the last of something that likely will never be made again.

 

While I agree with a lot of what you say, I still don't understand how you can say in the same post that they are alike and then list all the different little tweaks. Those tweaks definitely have a cumulative effect. Out of curiosity, how much seat time do you have in the 458 and 488 comparing the 2 cars? Based on your knowledge (I see that you know about cars from your post) I would also expect you to feel substantial differences in the 2 cars. I'm not trying to be facetious; I genuinely am confused.
And not sure if I count as a "professional", but I have 6 years of teaching experience, and still track my cars often, so I'm very in tune with my cars. A lot of stuff I mentioned had nothing to do with speed even though there is no doubt that the 488 is way faster (but for all intents and purposes, a street driven car will not show the benefits speed-wise). But it's more about feel. The 488 feels way more planted and composed, especially at higher speeds. My brother even detected that in about 5 minutes riding with me (comparing to his 458). Also, expanding on feel, the 2 cars put the power down very differently. The 488 is a torque monster compared to the 458, whereas the 458 likes higher revs to put the power down (I like both, but prefer the 458 with this). And you also mentioned that even an average person will notice and appreciate if a car is louder, or higher pitched, etc. I 100% agree with that statement, and I will also add that when a 458 is at 7,000 RPM+, it's wail is intoxicating, and intense. It is a huge part of what I loved about my 458. However, we can't ignore that most people will find the 488 better sounding (louder and meaner) when driving under 5,000 RPM in a relaxed manner, just cruising, which on the street is most of the time for most Ferrari owners.
The bottom line, is that they are different enough where you could own both, and not feel like you have 2 of the same car.
In my opinion, the 488 is a better performance bargain, and a 458 is a better longer term investment that will probably lose less money over time, or gain more if they go up.
In my case, I don't buy my cars to hold/gain value, I buy them to enjoy losing my money.

 

That right there means the two cars, 458 and 488, are not "identical" or even "nearly identical"

The fact that the 488 has a wider track means it handles differently (and by definition, "better").

The stability and traction management system have also been iteratively improved in the 488, as well as overall aero and downforce.

Add all those up (among other things like brakes), will simply make the 488 drive differently than the 458, if not "better."

 

I have ~3 years in my 458 spider and drove a 488 spider a handful of times.

Based on the experience you've described I'd wager that you're in the top dectile at least of Ferrari owners, most have never tracked and fewer are in a position to give track instruction.

W.r.t putting down power, no doubt the two are very different animals. But at no point did I say the engine/drivetrain wasn't very different. Of course it is. In fact I'd say it dominates the difference.

Let's play a thought experiment. If I have a 458 and I change bit by bit to turn it into a 488 ship of Theseus style. At some point it will become a 488 and be indistinguishable from a 488. Which bits do you think are most responsible for the difference that you or anyone would feel between driving a 458 vs 488 ? I'd say the engine is going to be responsible for well almost all the difference in feel in almost all use cases short of putting the car in neutral and rolling it down a steep mountain pass.

We can discuss feel about how planted it is, how responsive, etc. but all those things are so intangible and so easily influenced by your state of mind, especially for a "normal" person. Driving the same car at 5/10ths and 7/10ths would result in a different "feel" but it's the same car. Or better yet, if I take my car, change the alignment it will feel like an entirely different car, a couple degrees of camber or a degree of toe here or there makes huge impact... but it's the same car....

Things being different doesn't mean things are better. Things being different also exist on a scale, it's not a binary thing. It could well be the case that the 488 is "better" than the 458 and the 488 has different XYZ than the 458 but it doesn't mean that XYZ is the cause of the 488 being better. That's why I go to the thought experiment of changing things bits at a time. Yes there are interactions between parts and it isn't zero sum and it depends on the order in which you do things but fk it it's a thought experiment.

I'd wager that aside from the engine (which I think we'll all unanimously agree is the dominating factor) the remaining changes would then be dominated by the electronics, the side slip control and stability controls and what not, assuming we're driving at the limit.

Now I don't have 3d scans to show this but I'd wager that the suspension geometry between the 488 and 458 and identical or atleast similar enough as to not be materially substantial. Suspension geometry is defined by the lengths of your linkages, the hub and the subframe. That's it. The hubs are the same and the links are the same. I can't know the subframe mounting points are the same but I'd put good money on it because it would be really weird to keep the links the same but tweak your camber/toe/caster by moving the pickup pts on the subframe. Yes the spring rates and damping will be setup differently but these are things that are well within the realms of what you can change yourself should you choose to do so and rank very low on the heirarchy of what constitutes a substantial change. If a manufacturer came out with a new model and they told you all they changed was spring rates, arb stiffness and damping vs one that said they had new linkages & geometry .... which would you say is more substantial ? The only hardware differences that I can see are ARBs, coil springs, dampers, electronic damper control unit, and if we're talking about the non speciale 458, the front hub. These are changes which you normally see on different "trim levels" between cars, not different model cars.

Chassis wise it's not that I'm saying it's the same chassis, it isn't. But one look at it shows it's not a different design. maybe certain components had thicker material or whatever but these are relatively minor changes. If you trust Ferrari at face value the 488 spider has a 23% improvement in torsional rigidity compared to the 458 spider and equals that of the coupe .... so the 488 coupe vs 458 coupe simply can't have that much difference in torsional rigidity then. Now I don't believe anything Ferrari says at face value, that's just silly but it's difficult to imagine the 458/488 coupe chassis being substantially different given the above.

Brakes are same size between 458/488 and both obviously carbon and this system is easily the least stressed component of everything we've talked about so far. I would also again have to say that any difference here would probably be dominated by tires and ABS electronics as opposed to hardware. You're not going to get more brake torque (not that this was ever the limiting factor) and heat capacity/ventilation are not going to be big factors. On top of that, EVEN if it was the case the 488 brembos are somehow "better" .... you can just buy after market current gen carbon brakes which would be better than anything from the mid 2010s now from surface transforms or whatever. "Upgrading" the abs electronics would be far more difficult. Now I didn't take any of the 488s I've driven (all friend's cars or test drives so I'm not gonna beat on it to hell) to the limit so I can't speak to how different they are in the 0.7G+ deccel scenarios.

You mentioned that you're surprised I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the 488 and 458, I mean of course I do, I'm not insane. What I mean is I'm not confident that I'd be able to tell what if any handling differences there are that are "core" to the car's design. That is, agnostic to setup changes (alignment, tires, etc. things which are easily user changeable) AND discounting the effects of better electronic control in the stability control/diff/etc. would I be able to "feel" the difference between the 488 and 458 .... I'm not sure that I would.

I've had goes in other 458s and they felt different to mine, largely I imagine due to alignment/tires and relative differences in maintenance (tired bushings, leaky shocks, etc.). Those are clearly different "feel" but the same car. The difference between a 458 coupe and spider are substantial as well, this would in my view be a "core" difference because there's NOTHING I can do to my spider to give it the rigidity/stiffness of a real roof. It's obvious between the spider/coupe there's something really fundamentally different there ... I don't detect the same differences with the admittedly limited experience I've had with a 488 GTB vs the 458 coupe (the 458 spider and 488 spider are substantially different at least in my experience, the 458 spider being the floppiest of the entire 458 family of cars).

You're right in that you can own both a 458 and a 488 together and not feel like they're the same car but I attest that this is primarily due to the engine. If for some reason it was possible to put a 458 engine into a 488 I don't think I would be able to say the two (stock 458 vs 488 with a 458 heart) would be substantially different enough to warrant keeping both.

 

wider isn't always better, at some point things get TOO wide (this is especially true where I live in Hong Kong)

Difference isnt binary, it's a spectrum. It's not sufficient to say "oh there's a difference therefore it's better" or "this thing is better, here's a difference in "A", therefore "A" is responsible for the thing being better"

I 100% agree with you the stability/traction control and e-diff have improved substantially during that time if for no other reason than it NEEDED to be given managing a turbo engine is much more complex than an NA wrt T/C

I just say that I don't "care" as much about these things (very personal i know, not trying to force it down your throat) because while these things are important to ultimate performance like lap times or whatever, the reason people even consider a 458 over a 488 at these prices is not because of performance. I also maintain that things which are geared towards ultimate performance simply don't age well. There will ALWAYS be a newer faster better thing. The sound or idea or "feel" of the NA V8 is what is driving the relative strength in 458 pricing vs the 488. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, it's just what the market is saying/valuing.

As for aero, 100% agree with you again. It's clear the 488 has more aero focus. I'm also gonna say that this is the ultimate of ultimate dick measuring parameters. Absolutely no way you're ever utilizing this in any material way on the road unless you're well into the triple digits.

 

Thank you for that very complete answer. I now understand your approach to what you consider essentially the same. And I definitely agree with what you are saying, coming from that angle. It's really hard to slowly add changes and specify the actual point where they feel like different cars (Other than same car differences, like suspension adjustments, etc) I also strongly agree that, by far, the engine is the most noticeable difference between the two cars. However, regarding the chassis, it is definitely noticeable immediately that it is more rigid on the 488. As a matter of fact, being super sensitive to chassis stiffness, I don't even enjoy driving a spider. I can feel the flex before I even pull out of a parking lot (I'm not exaggerating here) so I always like the stiffest version of the car (plus less chance of squeaks and rattles that I'm also super sensitive and annoyed by). You can also argue that I can get the 488 spider and it will be as stiff as a 458 coupe, so why not? That's a whole different analysis / conversation though. And unfortunately, for a modern Ferrari, neither chassis totally excites, nor impresses me. The only car that I drove as a spider that truly impressed me was a Mclaren. I literally couldn't tell the difference driving the coupe and the spider back-to-back. The ONLY difference I could tell between the two, was that the reflection in the rear-view mirror was ever so slightly blurred over bumps due to cowl shake, but the chassis rigidity itself felt exactly the same to me, I couldn't believe it! That's what a carbon tub will do for you. There's nothing like it!
The benefit of that, is that the suspension ca be tuned to do exactly what it needs to do, without taking chassis flex into account. That is something that any untrained person can feel immediately. However, one might have to point out to them why it feels "different" than another car. It feels very different, but very easy to appreciate and fall in love with. It's a very solid feeling.
As far as the brakes go, you are incorrect about them being the same. They are the same as the Speciale and LaFerrari (I believe), they are bigger on the 488 than the 458. Take a look at them if you see them parked side by side.

I would like to point out, and essentially support what you are saying, by using one of my other cars for an example. The car I purchased to track is the new Nissan Nismo Z. It is the same exact car as the "regular" Z technically (engineering-wise). I will use the performance model for this comparison, which is the top model of the regular Z, but without the Nismo "tweaks". Many would say (and they do say) "It's overpriced. It's too expensive for a Z, and you only get a few performance and cosmetic changes, and it's not worth it".
Just for reference, the changes are:
- different front, and rear bumpers for better aero and cooling
- Transmission cooler, Rear end cooler, and bigger oil cooler
- 20% quicker upshift and 40% quicker downshifts
- 20 more HP and (I think) 39 more torque
- Thicker sway bars, springs, stiffer shocks
- Chassis stiffeners
- Stronger transmission with additional Sport+ mode
- Larger Akebono 15" brakes
- 200tw Summer tires
- Rays light weight wheels
-Racing brake fluid
- Alcantara steering wheel
- Recaro bucket seats
- better steering rack
And probably a few different things that I forgot. I essentially broke it in, changed the oil, and drove straight to the track all stock!

All that for about $13k. In my mind it's a bargain, but most people have no idea what difference they are getting with the sum of all the parts. However, I can tell you that the difference is outrageous! The regular Z (even the top "Performance" model) basically sucks on the track. It has a lot of understeer, and completely loses its composure at anything above 8/10's. The Nismo feels like a COMPLETELY different car. It has very neutral handling, very communicative with the driver, and I feel like one with the car. It is truly unbelievable how Nissan transformed the same car to feel completely different and perform like it does. I can drive that car at 9/10's all day long without batting an eye. Pulling consistent 1.3-1.4 G on the turns, and .9-1G on braking. I could never do that, or at least do that feeling as good with the regular Z. So, the point I'm trying to make, is that if the same car feels so different from ~14 tweaks, it's definitely not a stretch for a car that is based off of a prior generation car, but not the same, to also feel completely different with all the changes combined.
But ultimately, as we both definitely agree, different doesn't mean better. Better is different from person to person, which also depends on how you use the car.

 

So in a nutshell, you are obviously sta

Without overcomplicating everything or saying one person is right or wrong.
What I'm reading is that you are just pointing out that most people will pick/prefer the 458 because they value N/A engine, higher revving higher pitched sound at over 5,000 RPM's and Pininfarina design versus picking the 488 which is a Turbo (more complicated, so maybe more risk) with better sound in lower revs, stiffer chassis, better brakes, better transmission, better electronics, better interior quality (especially the buttons), better fit and finish, better steering, better aero, WAY better stereo, way more HP and torque.
While it may be true that most prefer the 458 (I don't know actual numbers and may be swayed by enthusiasts on the forums. Non enthusiasts may pick a completely different Ferrari than the models we like), it doesn't really matter at the end of the day, unless you are buying the car for "most" people, or planning on it for an investment, but then you would need an Aperta which is way more expensive. I can attest that they are both very capable and enjoyable cars. Even though my 360 was an antiquated car and technically worse in every way than the 458/488, I still love some things about it more than the newer cars. Each person needs to own the car that they like the feel of, and the beauty of Ferrari is that they all feel very different, and very special, so there's a seat for every ass, lol.
Oh boy... It's getting late, time for bed!

 

100% agree with you Ferrari convertibles just aren't very good dynamically except maybe the laf aperta which is carbon tubbed

Ferrari is way behind in this space compared to the likes of mclaren which genuinely have little drawback on their roadsters

My bad on the brake rotor sizing, I stupidly took the AI google result which was referring to some aftermarket thing. In any case I really don't think it's that big a deal. You know how the saying goes, if you can trigger ABS, you've got enough brake torque, performance beyond that is above cooling, heat capacity, ease of modulation, consistency of mu. I am not convinced there are materially big enough changes in these areas to make a difference beyond the purposes of winning dick measuring contests. But I do have to concede I was mistaken here, my bad.

Chassis stiffness IS a massive thing, you're 100% on point about everything you said about it being the core of a platform, if you've got a wobly chassis no ammount of suspension tweaks or tuning will fix it. The 458 Spider is also particularly poor in this area because the 458 spider and 458 coupe use the same ARB/spring rates/damping rates if I'm not mistaken so it really is quite compromised, the 488 spider will match much more closely to the coupe. I'm sure on a track or really caning it on a canyon/mountain road it will be noticeable but atleast for me, I never felt like it detracted heavily from the experience but again that's a very personal thing. It also helps i guess that the roads I have here in HK are all so narrow that it's hard to push even 560hp without things getting really sketchy really quickly.

I agree with you all the little changes add up in a big way. I threw probably 15k in mods on my 25k ND MX5 all of which are simple bolt ons and it made a massive difference (in many ways too big a differnce ... i wanted a race car, i got a race car, i dont have a race track ... ). It's just in my view that these easily user changeable things aren't really things I should be too excited about when the factory does it .... because I can do it myself so I tend to discount the perceived value add of these things from the factory, especially when it comes at a huge premium. One of the more memorable examples of this is the water injection that was featured in the M4 GTS. It was hyped up so much at the time and I was like .... dude I can buy this kit from AEM that does the exact same thing and it's water methanol injection and itll cost 1000 usd with installation....

Sometimes you get a good deal on these packages from the factory, other times you dont. The 90s type R Hondas had modifications which were sometimes quite intensive including braces which you could "technically" weld yourself if you were willing to strip the car down to bits. So that's good value add ...but given where a random EK civic is priced now vs an EK9 Type R .... maybe it doesn't make sense anymore, the "value" of these things varies over time. Other 90s special versions of cars or whatever just added stiffer anti roll bars or a strut brace or something which is a horrible deal given better components were available in the aftermarket even at that time. Today the value of some of these special editions is wildly non-commensurate with the objective differences to the bare bones model simply because of nostalgia, perceived or actual rarity/collectibility or whatever ... people paying thousands for flimsy p.o.s nismo strut bars for their GTR because oooo nostalgia + OEM.

Yeah I think we came to a good conclusion. Different is different, better means different things to different people. If that's how you feel, that's how you feel, but it's important to stay grounded and not let our opinions be shaped by other people (that includes tropes like new is always better, something manufacturers kinda depend on to stay in business and throw millions of marketing dollars at to reinforce that belief).

 

100% agree

We never even got to the normal stuff like fit & finish but yeah, it's a huge difference, my 458 must have been built after a big lunch, when pulling off some of the trim I was SHOCKED by the poor workmanship. Italians ... sigh.

 

Excellent post!
Just a little sidenote about "feel". I know you question what a person feels when driving vs. in their heads. There is a single non performance change that can make the car feel completely different and higher performance, when there is no actual change in the vehicle.
That's the race seats. My 458 had the race seats, and it is unbelievable how different it made my car feel compared to a car with Daytona seats! I sat lower, which is better because I'm tall, more snug because I'm thin, and I was able to feel the road and car in a way that made me feel so much more connected (thinner padding). I'll take it one step further...they were Alcantara, and those felt way better and more connected (probably due to grippiness of the material) compared to leather racing seats. I am not kidding when I say night and day. I have the Daytona seats in my 488, and I kind of regret not waiting for a 488 with racing seats to come along. And the craziest part, even though they have less padding, they were more comfortable for me. I guess my body has the same shape that they were designed for. Win/win

 

It adds character!

 

'Think I can tell the difference' ?? is this serious? I've owned and driven those 3 over the past 10 years and ANYONE who can't immediately 'tell the difference', is in a coma. These differences in these 3 cars are not subtle... AT ALL. They are clear and obvious and can't be ignored, never mind 'try to 'tell the difference'. You have apparently not driven them at all or for more than 30 seconds. Anyway, this shouldn't be a debate and I don't mean to 'argue' but I feel you must be trolling a bit because what you say makes very little sense to any of us that own and drive these cars. All greaat cars but if you got offended somehow with the truth, enjoy whichever car you own and believe whatever you'd like. Just be happy and have fun but do NOT come on and say the differences between 458, 488 and F8 are minuscule, subtle or irrelevant... they are INCREDIBLY OBVIOUS on a GRAND SCALE. Go buy and drive some.

oh, and i dont know what growing a burgundy means

 

I swear. I thought I am in Rennlist for a second.
wait, this thread is not 14 pages long yet!?

 

my alfa 4c spyder has carbon fiber chassis. BMW i8 has it too. I would not define the presence of carbon fiber chassis or lack thereof as the gauge on how cutting-edge development is for car manufacturing.

 

man, you missed his sarcasm.

 

His posts are AI generated and then he tweaks it with some capitalizations and words and sentences to tie to the discussion by saying things like, 'you're correct or I agree with you' etc... I just ran a test with AI and came up with his answers and explanations -- silliness but amusing. Points are fine and acceptable though that MOST of us and most humans truly wont and cant detect tenths of a second etc but this isn't about speed or acceleration only... its the whole overall package and the cars are blatantly different to all us laymen . We dont have to be race drivers to feel the differences in the cars.

 

....I kinda mean it though LOL!

 

Nothing new there, honestly, I DO miss a lot of it. Seriously.