Uprated F1 Pump Install / Bleed Question

This weekend I finished changing out some F1 hydraulic parts and wanted to share my experience.

Background: I've had my '99 360 Coupe for a few weeks now, not much history was available. Upon picking up the car I could not get it to shift into 2nd and went straight to neutral. If still rolling at a decent speed it would eventually engage 4th or 5th. Engine on - The pump was running pretty much non-stop, cycling on for about a second, off about a half a second then back on again. even with engine off key-on, it would cycle about every 15 seconds, and most of the time would not shift past 3rd or 4th with the occasional F1 light. After reading almost every post about the f1 system here, I concluded I most likely had a bad accumulator (also found a semi-recent invoice from Ferrari of Scottsdale and in the notes they were recommending accumulator replacement due to fast cycling - but service not performed). Also suspected an internally leaking EVF clutch solenoid. I currently am unable to read TCU information on my Thinkdiag2 as it will not connect. I discovered a 2001 TCU (191701) was installed. This one is a flashable version but I think still to early for the Thinkdiag2.

Rather than individually changing the accumulator and EVF solenoid, I opted to swap out the entire power unit with a rebuilt and tested unit from MLR engineering. I know this was not necessarily required but it was not that much more than those 2 individual parts at $1,100. I also wanted to change out the f1 Pump/motor, as I was not sure how old it was, and god knows how long that thing was being overworked with the fast cycling. I eventually want to upgrade to a CS TCU too, and I understand those like higher pressures to start from what I've read here, and it was worth it to me for the piece of mind, so I went for their uprated pump/motor assembly. I didn't see any threads about those, So here you go.

The Pump and Motor Assembly seems very high quality, but it is about 4-5 inches longer than the stock unit, so Its not a direct bolt in.
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The pump needs to be repositioned inboard on the stock bracket about 2 inches in order for the rear of the motor to clear the charcoal canister. It will not fit in the factory holes with the charcoal canister in the stock location. I suppose one could also relocate the cannister to provide clearance, but there's not much room to work with there either, so it seemed simpler for me to move the pump. I used some pieces of aluminum stock that I had to move the pump aft to clear the bracket and inboard to clear the canister. (not pictured: I also used a 65mm Cable camp to support the motor body)

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In this new position you will need to create a new pressure line, as the old hard line will not reach, even if re-bent. You could probably use some flex brake hose, but I have a nice Eastwood flare tool so I fabricated a new hard line using 1/4" brake line and M12x1.0 DIN (bubble flare) fittings. You may need to open up the middle of the fitting with a drill if using 1/4 line but not required if you have 6mm line. The fluid reservoir to pump hose reaches fine, just need to turn the reservoir some. The reservoir mounting bracket will also need some flat stock to move it over a couple inches.
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There's lots of ways to do this but this is what I did. After installation, I added fluid, restored power, bled the clutch at both locations. I successfully did this without the scanner by opening the bleeders IN NEUTRAL, on jacks (just in case) with the engine running until I got nice clear streams of fluid. Now, with key on engine off, I can successfully shift into all gears and it feels and sounds quite solid. Pump runs every 3-4 shifts. Holds it prime overnight too.

With the engine running, the pump runs about every 10 seconds stationary. Still not ideal... But keep in mind I did not even bleed the actuator yet. Went for a test drive and honestly it shifts quite well through all gears. No more popping into N. It's a little slow, and thus a bit jerky when you're really on it, but I have no reference other than watching videos of others driving and shifting, and it's not much different at all. It could simply be the older software in the TCU.

Next, I know I need to bleed to actuator eventually, but I'm just happy to be at a point where I can drive and the thing. I'm sure there was some air introduced when the lines were opened. Again, I currently cannot bleed the actuator with the scanner since I do not have connectivity to the TCU. Eventually, I want to reflash (or replace) to a CS spec TCU and also re-flash my ECUs at the same time so they all like each other. But in the meantime, Here what I would like to do, but I would like to get some input first:

I am planning on pulling the actuator off of the transmission (in N first), opening the 3 bleed (really bypass) screws about a turn (which is less than the recommended 2 turns with the diagnostic bleed) and shift through all the gears multiple, multiple times. In theory, this should move the fluid (and and any bubbles) through the actuator, into the return line, into the power unit, than back into the reservoir. I'm unsure of the TCU logic, but I feel only opening the bleed screws 1 turn may prevent any odd behaviors that may occur if the TCU thinks there is too much internal leakage with the screws open too much. Then I can close up the screws put it back into N and reattach the actuator. Thoughts on that? from what I understand I should NOT need diagnostic scanner if simply removing the actuator from the gearbox only and reinstalling. I don't think the system cares if its actually moving linkages or not, right?

Eventually I will need to rebuild the actuator due to a small f1 fluid leak from the sensor anyway, and I got the rebuild seal kit from MLR also, which they were nice enough to put together for me. This will certainly need diagnostics since I will have to perform a centering with the Hill tool (which I have) and perform a relearn after I rebuild the actuator, but this will be a future project.

I really enjoy working on this system since I have 20 years in-depth maintenance experience troubleshooting and repairing electro-hydraulic flight control systems on the C-5 and C-17 aircraft in the Air Force. Surprisingly this system is not much different and it's really pretty simple when you break it down

Thanks guys.

-Rick

 

Thanks!
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Thanks for the reply Flash! I really do appreciate your insight. I already have the thinkdiag2 and confirmed its not talking to the TCU. Life would be much easier if it did so I agree, and think a TCU flash is a logical next step and will let really see whats really going on with the system.

As far as the clutch circuit, I don't see any external leaks. I read about the lower clutch block developing cracks on the early cars, but is that an usually an internal or external leak? Since there is no return line from the TO bearing back to the power unit, and only the one pressure line (with the QD) it seams like a deadhead system. That pressure has to bleed off somewhere, and I guess I'm having a hard time understanding where.. if not externally and with no bypass path back to the revisor.

Just to add too, I was told the clutch has about 50% remaining. This appears to be accurate based on physical examination through the inspection cover. I can still see some of the d shaped grooves in the friction material. My PIS (whatever that may be) feel pretty good too. From a stop, its engaging quite smoothly: Around 1000rpm and no movement or creep in 1st foot off the brake.

 

Thanks Erik! Yes, they are 20"... If it were me buying them I would have went with a 19 but It'll do for the meantime. Not the most clearance I've ever had, but I've had less also, so ill definitely be careful with it haha. You can see a few spots were contact was made at some point.

I have already swapped out the OEM grey relay to Ricambi's 40A version155437A 40A( https://www.ricambiamerica.com/155437a-f1-relay-alternate-40a.html ) It went right in the 5 pin slot. I'm sure the old one got pretty beat up cycling 60 times a minute. Keeping a spare in the glove box too just like you recommended.

 

A little bit of an update.. I spoke with Dominick and we have a good gameplan.

1. I ordered an inexpensive Autel AP200 to at least hopefully give me some read only capabilities with the TCU to help see what's going on and also retrieve some data that I will need for a new TCU anyway. Also tried multiple ways with my Thinkdiag2 like @KnightSolaire Suggested, but no luck.

2. PM'd @eric355 to inquire about getting an updated TCU to give full access to troubleshoot and bleed properly, unlike what I was trying.

3. I inspected the lower clutch block to check for hairline cracks that could be sucking in air. Looks like it was replaced with the upgraded aluminum block at some point which is good. No signs of any leaking near the clutch or along the lines anywhere.

4. Dominic made some good points about solenoids and got me thinking. I never really looked at the solenoid labels on the remanufactured unit I received... and sure enough, there's some differences between the original power unit and the replacement I received.

Old Power Unit:
EVF (clutch) - QPV02
EV1 - PPV02
EV2 - PPV02
EV3 - QPV02
EV4 - QPV02
EV5 - QPV02

Reman Power Unit: (differences in bold)
EVF (clutch) - QPV04 (blue label)
EV1 - PPV02
EV2 - PPV02
EV3 - QPV10
EV4 - QPV02
EV5 - QPV02

I saw this thread covered some information with substitutes but seems that they are interchangeable as long as they are a QPV or a PPV? it got a little muddy:
https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/interesting-finding-on-f1-system.515154/page-4

Any thoughts on that? I might try to swap out a QPV02 solenoid from the from EV3,4,or 5 from the old power unit (just not from the EVF since that one was likely leaking too) and put that in the EVF location on the new one. Couldn't hurt to see if there is any difference in the pump cycling frequency.

This is exactly what I was trying to avoid by changing out the entire unit with one that was supposedly remanufactured with known good parts and tested haha.

 

Okie doke thanks for confirming that! I'll leave it alone for now. I have some cosmetic stuff to keep me busy instead the meantime.

Also, here's that buzzing noise I was talking about when/after shifting. This is key on engine off. Not sure if normal but its been doing it since day one.

 

Hang on it's too big to upload

 

I think @flash32 is probably onto something dealing with air in the system still since I've not bled appropriately yet. Fluid is a little frothy in the reservoir which would certainly be another indicator.

 

Just wanted to give an update. I got my TCU back from @eric355 Monday. He was super quick and the return shipping was very fast, but I used USPS to send it out and they took almost 2 weeks to get it to him. Still beats the $260 shipping UPS quoted though haha. I also wanted to give a big shoutout to @flash32 for all his continued help.

After I got it back in, I was finally able to bleed the clutch circuit with the Thinkdiag2 several times and got a decent amount of bubbles out of there. I'll also go back and edit my original post about being able to bleed the clutch circuit without a scanner just using the engine running to avoid giving bad advice to anyone in the future not reading this entire thing. It will clear some air but not all of it. Now, with the engine running in both in N and 1, pressure holds great and pump cycles are well over 5 minutes apart vs the previous 10 seconds before the automated bleed. I set PIS, did the I/O and a self learn and went for a spirited drive, and its night and day improvement. After warmed up I played with the PIS and got it pretty close I think. Shifting also feels improved but somewhat slow/clunky in the 1-2, and one time it went to N on the 3-4 shift, I'm still betting this is all due to the actuator needing to be bled from the power unit replacement. I've learned even the littlest bit of air can cause issues, so bolting on 5 dry solenoids and an empty manifold introduced a bunch into the shifting circuit no doubt.

Last night I pulled the rear grill, bumper, and separated the actuator from the gearbox to access the bleed screws. I did have a very tiny drop of gear oil on the bottom of the lower engagement sensor (like was mentioned in a Ferrari of Scottsdale inspection note) but after looking closer, the sensor appears to have been replaced at some point and has a bit of a sloppy RTV seal job where its mated which seems like the culprit, so I might not even need a full actuator rebuild like I thought right away. I ran through the actuator bleeding procedure a few times with the screws out 2 turns as directed in the WSM, and I could definitely see some froth/bubbles in the reservoir which is a good sign the procedure is working and clearing trapped air.

I wont have a chance to get back in the shop for a few days, but I'm going to run an actuator bleed one or 2 more times for good measure, and then close the bleed screws and button everything up. Then I'll run the self-learn. I'll report back!

Side note/question: I have the Hill Engineering centering tool, think its necessary or worth centering the actuator while I have it off of the gearbox?

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That's kind of what I was thinking, but thanks for confirming. Plus with my luck I'd end up shearing the bolt off or something haha. I think I've opened enough cans of worms for the time being.