Why does "everyone" prefer the 458 over the 488?

I actually enjoy thrashing a kart around alot more than a Ferrari on track. If I bin it or break something.....just get a new one. At my financial status point, not really a feasible option if I bin an Fcar.

Back to the OP comment, in the looks department, I think the perfect car would have an F8 front end, 488 rear end, and Speciale engine. Or....a Pista with a Speciale engine.

 

F8 body with 458 Speciale engine but tech-d up with a more modern valvetrain (like what they did with the 12cillindri's motor), that's perfection.

Yea a 488 with a tune will still be faster but then again, so is a Tesla. 10,000 rpm baby !!

 

Don’t care about “faster”. Care about beauty and soul (sorry to sound like an Alfa commercial. lol). 0-60 in 3 secs is fast enough for most. Yeah, if you just want speed, by a Plaid or Lucid Air Sapphire.

 

yeah for sure

i just wish the 458 engine, the last NA V8 had roller rockers instead of flat tappets for longevity, it's probably not a huge deal given i'm never gonna get this thing to 100,000 miles but still

 

I’ve been inquiring about stuffing the 458 engine into a 355 body. To me that would be epic. (And a new steering wheel lol)

 

Funny hearing people say the 488 is "much" faster, yes newer cars by ferrari keep getting faster, but 0-60 & lap times are just marginally different. The only Lap times I could find were comparing the 458 Italia to the 488 Pista, not really a fair comparison being that the Pista is a Special Model, but the Difference wasn't "Much" even between those two & probably way slower than what I would turn in regardless of car generation...
My 458 hitting 9200 rpm is crazy fast honestly, but I get the "quick" description. My 355 Spider feels Quick. I was following a buddy in his Stock 430 & in the Curves I was on his rear, tho my 355 is lowered & has spacers, so that makes it feel Quick to me even after driving my 458 or 430. But punching the 458 last night after Band Practice... you're breaking all kinds of laws before you even leave 2nd gear......... to the Quick Point my 64 Corvette Convertible feels Quick, tho I know it isn't by comparison, the 4.56:1 Rear end Ratio helps that but it feels fast probably due to the everything is old fear factor... LOL

For me I liked the 458 styling better, the Naturally Asperated 9200 screams (mine has the Sport Exhaust which believe is made by Tubi)
Another Buddy of mine added a 458 to his collection & his newest was a Gated 360 & he made a comment about the 458 being almost too fast to enjoy, because you're going insanely fast at the end of 2nd gear.

 

Considering your extensive collection, I highly recommend picking up a 488. Toss a X pipe exhaust on it and drive. You'll realize it's MUCH faster than a 458. The "boost by gear" they use creates a beast that won't stop pulling hard, gear by gear.

 

I'm not disagreeing with the comment that the 488 will be faster but it's that really enough of a reason?

How reasonable of an argument would it be to say"hey don't buy the 355,get the 360 instead because it's so much faster", that would be laughable.

I get that it was a good argument in late 2010s when both 458 and 488 were new enough that it would be reasonable to weight speed highly as a factor. In 2025 the 458 at least is approaching classic status, even the newest 458 is 10 years old. The 488 is newer yea and can legitimately still be compared with modern supercar offerings but the 458 can't.

The 488 thus represents huge value at its current value in a way that the 458 doesn't but the 458 represents a product that the 488 doesn't in the same way the 355 is an entirely different product than the 360.

As an analogy there's a lot of parallels here too. 458 and 488 share a chassis and differ mainly in the engine department where the 488 represents a huge leap in development compared to its predecessor. The 360 shares an engine with the 355 but possesses a different chassis which represents a huge leap in development compared to its predecessor.

Newer is almost always"objectively better"but market value only has a tenuous relationship with what is "objectively better"

I think throughout the discussions on this thread I've changed my mind on the whole discussion. Originally I thought having both a 458 And 488 would be a bit superfluous and a waste of a parking spot but I think it would be pretty cool to add a 488GTB to my 458 Spider and just go to town on the 488 with tunes/mods for a "peak non hybrid ICE performance" type build while keeping the 458 spider as a drop top cruiser.

At one point I was going to make a comment like (you can't feel 0.1s, bla bla bla) but then realized that while that's strictly speaking true, your brain can't reliably feel 0.1-0.3s....that's also not how our brains interpret speed or acceleration... We feel Gs and if 60-100 takes 2.5s vs 2.8s that's 10% more G force which you'll certainly feel.

 

Yes, because there was only like a 20 hp difference between the 355 and 360, with similar torque figures....and the 360 was heavier.

It is a FAR different discussion with a 100 hp difference and 163 lb-ft more of beautiful torque pushing you to the horizon.

 

Pretty sure the 360 was lighter by like 40kg after moving to aluminum construction vs steel and it gained 30-40hp (higher figure for the CS)

Absolute figures not as major but on a relative basis close enough.

Your kinda proving my point though. What was a major improvement between generations like comparatively tiny now

That's also going to be true for the 458 v 488 in another 5-10 years or so.

Id honestly argue (as others in the thread already have) that straight line speed simply doesn't matter in this segment anymore when anyone with a German 3liter turbo 6 can buy a downpipe and a tune and get 600-700 hp and any old Rs, E63, M5 can get to 800-1000hp on the same treatment. It's just not a legitimate differentiating factor.

With that said a 488 is much more tuneable than a 458 but I feel those who are into aftermarket mods beyond bolt on exhausts tend to flock to lamborghini and McLaren.

I get why people will want a 488 I really do. I also get why people want a 458 instead. I do think the 458 is much more attractive in the spider house than the 488 simply because you're sacrificing so much performance in the convertible that the benefits of the 488 are severely diminished both from an engineering standpoint as well as from an intended use case standpoint.

Even though the 488 spider chassis has more reinforcement than the 458 spider did, it's still a very floppy design and you sacrifice a lot compared to the coupe (unlike McLaren for example where the penalty for having the convertible is much smaller) just one look at the chassis and this is possibly obvious

 

488 GTB faster ? Yes , By much now who cares , its faster. However the 458 is N/A and you have to squeeze the crap out of it to see the torque That's where Turbo's are better and especially the way Ferrari has tuned the turbo pressure by gear.

And there you go you make the most obvious point , without screaming the car you have no torque and when you do there goes your license.

That's why I find the 488 GTB heaps more engaging. I can play with the gear selector and sill have MUCH more torque than a N/A 458 and be under the speed limit.

 

[QUOTE="KnifeEdge2k1, post: 150179999, member: 262614"

Your kinda proving my point though. What was a major improvement between generations like comparatively tiny now

[/QUOTE]

Absolutely did not prove your point....100 hp and 163 more lb-ft will ALWAYS be a huge difference. The difference in power delivery will ALWAYS be huge. The 488 has thrust everywhere through the mid range, where is where you want it. And if that difference isn't good enough, it is easy and cheap to add another 100 hp. With the 458, you are stuck.

 

I’m so happy to be stuck with a 458.

 

Absolutely did not prove your point....100 hp and 163 more lb-ft will ALWAYS be a huge difference. The difference in power delivery will ALWAYS be huge. The 488 has thrust everywhere through the mid range, where is where you want it. And if that difference isn't good enough, it is easy and cheap to add another 100 hp. With the 458, you are stuck.[/QUOTE]
Will it though when the base super cars get to 1000hp?

I remember like 25 years ago that 20hp or so was a massive change and today that’s the difference between your car on Tuesday and Thursday with all the software in the car.

you’re still kind of missing the point by focusing on how the 488 is faster, I don’t disagree, no one does, the point is no one cares when any random EV is faster at all speeds you’ll experience on the open road or when things like the ZR1 exists. If you have a very narrow scope and say I want a midship non hybrid Ferrari and I place extremely high priority on straight line speed then ok the 488 is the way to go. I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that’s not where most Ferrari buyers are in mindset.

when the 488 gets older and the 296 gets older and the “next” midship Ferrari has 900 or 1000hp then the question between the 458 and 488 will be less focused on “speed” because the “speed” choice will be the 296 in the used market.

you’re saying effectively “if you want speed you won’t pick the 458” and you’re correct…but by that same argument you wouldn’t pick the 430, 360, etc either but each of those cars have their own characteristics which are appealing

I’m not saying the 488 doesn’t have any redeeming qualities I’m saying take the transient qualities away to see what permanent characteristics remain. You mention the low and midrange being much more punchy, that’s certainly a defining characteristic and you’re right. Whether that is a positive or negative depends on your point of view. If you’re the type that likes a 911 turbo then you’re going to view it as a positive, if you’re the type that prefers a GT3 then you’re going to view it as a negative. The design of the 488 itself demonstrates this. why limit boost at lower rpm’s in 1st through 3rd? it’s deliberate nerfing of the low/mid range torque to artificially shape the power curve to mimic an NA motor. Why mimic something that is not “desirable”?

when we’re talking bout old cars, how good it performs no longer matters, it’s not like one day it suddenly stops mattering but its importance slowly erodes away, that’s just how things are. If you’re only going to be “in” the car for a couple years s doesn’t matter to you, but for many of us we buy these cars and intend to keep and enjoy them for 10-20 years or until we physically can’t anymore. We are buying a feeling, not drag strip numbers. If I wanted to buy drag strip times or highway pulls I wouldn’t buy a Ferrari as there are far cheaper ways to get more thrills in that space. I find the venn diagram of those who want a Ferrari and those who prioritize the drag strip times to have very small overlap when the cars get older than 10years or so, for the new stuff, there is still significant overlap which the 488 still kinda qualifies for. In another 5 years maybe not.

another analogy is that of the 360 vs 430. It might be a much better analogy to 458 v 488 given the fact both examples are comparing brothers which share the same fundamental chassis and differ only on the engine side of things (though the 430 obviously stays NA). There is no doubt that the 430 is a better performer than the 360 but I doubt that’s high up on people’s priority when considering between the two today. I know for me I’d prefer a 360 to a 430 because of the 5v head and because there’s no ediff, I’d be choosing something because it is objectively worse, a logically stupid choice yes but it is the one I would make nonetheless

 

I think what some are trying to say, is the 488 is one of the last engaging mid engine Ferraris we can shop for. With a good exhaust system it sounds great, has styling cues from Pininfarina era, looks aggressive, drives wonderful on track and road, full of torque, and still has a beautiful analog tach and clean interior from an era we all loved. For someone that doesn't want to deal with V6 and hybrid BS it's the best deal running for some Italian flavor and soul. (The F8 is a contender as well but I don't care for the busy rear end and exhaust games you have to play)

I'm a HUGE 458 fan boy and I must admit the 488GTB REALLY grew on me in the last 2-3 years, so much so I finally bought one. Hell, I think the engine bay looks better as well with that flat and wide intake manifold. It's really a car you can stare at and admire after a nice cruise. Hell, that's all we can ask for and the 458 and 488 does it in spades. Good day Gents!

 

With all due respect, I have not heard a great 488. Louder, yes. But not pleasing sounds.
I think if one can live with the limitations of the turbo world Ferraris then a 675lt or 750s is preferable due to engagement and sheer performance over the 488.
Personally I preferred my Performante over my 488s, Pista and 765lt.
To each their own, buy and drive and enjoy.

 

Will it though when the base super cars get to 1000hp?

I remember like 25 years ago that 20hp or so was a massive change and today that’s the difference between your car on Tuesday and Thursday with all the software in the car.

you’re still kind of missing the point by focusing on how the 488 is faster, I don’t disagree, no one does, the point is no one cares when any random EV is faster at all speeds you’ll experience on the open road or when things like the ZR1 exists. If you have a very narrow scope and say I want a midship non hybrid Ferrari and I place extremely high priority on straight line speed then ok the 488 is the way to go. I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that’s not where most Ferrari buyers are in mindset.

when the 488 gets older and the 296 gets older and the “next” midship Ferrari has 900 or 1000hp then the question between the 458 and 488 will be less focused on “speed” because the “speed” choice will be the 296 in the used market.

you’re saying effectively “if you want speed you won’t pick the 458” and you’re correct…but by that same argument you wouldn’t pick the 430, 360, etc either but each of those cars have their own characteristics which are appealing

I’m not saying the 488 doesn’t have any redeeming qualities I’m saying take the transient qualities away to see what permanent characteristics remain. You mention the low and midrange being much more punchy, that’s certainly a defining characteristic and you’re right. Whether that is a positive or negative depends on your point of view. If you’re the type that likes a 911 turbo then you’re going to view it as a positive, if you’re the type that prefers a GT3 then you’re going to view it as a negative. The design of the 488 itself demonstrates this. why limit boost at lower rpm’s in 1st through 3rd? it’s deliberate nerfing of the low/mid range torque to artificially shape the power curve to mimic an NA motor. Why mimic something that is not “desirable”?

when we’re talking bout old cars, how good it performs no longer matters, it’s not like one day it suddenly stops mattering but its importance slowly erodes away, that’s just how things are. If you’re only going to be “in” the car for a couple years s doesn’t matter to you, but for many of us we buy these cars and intend to keep and enjoy them for 10-20 years or until we physically can’t anymore. We are buying a feeling, not drag strip numbers. If I wanted to buy drag strip times or highway pulls I wouldn’t buy a Ferrari as there are far cheaper ways to get more thrills in that space. I find the venn diagram of those who want a Ferrari and those who prioritize the drag strip times to have very small overlap when the cars get older than 10years or so, for the new stuff, there is still significant overlap which the 488 still kinda qualifies for. In another 5 years maybe not.

another analogy is that of the 360 vs 430. It might be a much better analogy to 458 v 488 given the fact both examples are comparing brothers which share the same fundamental chassis and differ only on the engine side of things (though the 430 obviously stays NA). There is no doubt that the 430 is a better performer than the 360 but I doubt that’s high up on people’s priority when considering between the two today. I know for me I’d prefer a 360 to a 430 because of the 5v head and because there’s no ediff, I’d be choosing something because it is objectively worse, a logically stupid choice yes but it is the one I would make nonetheless[/QUOTE]


Somehow I believe the Techs at Ferrari know a thing or two about putting power to the ground.

The 488GTB was designed to be boost by gear to give that N/A experience. It has virtually no turbo lag.

The difference between it and the 458 is that you push down on the pedal whereas on the 458 a slight tap will see a response.

If there was no boost by gear the 488GTB would just be spinning it wheel, a bit like those mustangs on You Tube spinning off the road.

Sit in a 488 GTB and you will see there is pressure from the Turbos ALWAYS on even at idle.

FYIY I dont think the 458 is a bad car, I just dont like its style. The Speciale is a whole different discussion . Heaps better than the 458 the body that is. But alas same issue N/A and you need to scream it to see it going forward.

The N/A's NEED A MANUAL SHIFT.

 

the boost limitation is to imitate an NA power profile, it's not for putting down power (that's the traction control's job)

you can't have positive boost at idle, mechanically that's not even possible regardless of what a gauge tells you, the intake has to be pulling vacuum

turbo lag isn't as bad as it was with 80s cars but there's always going to be some, it's just going to be measured in fractions of a second, i remember reading somewhere it's like 0.2 or 0.3 s more than NA which is a huge accomplishment but it's not 0 and it never will be 0

 

Ever driven a 488 GTB ? Second and RACE you loose traction and that with only 30% of the turbo.

You are mistaken , yes there is a positive boost idle.

You havent been in a 488GTB have you ?

 

I have and no you can't physically have boost at idle mate

Nor would you WANT boost at idle.

How do you imagine an engine can maintain idle while on boost? It doesn't make sense.

Every engine that is not a diesel pulls a vacuum at idle and that's because they modulate fuel not airflow and even then at best the manifold pressure will be atmospheric.

 

Yes you can. Slight but its there. Its dialed in called anti - lag.

Go ask a tuning house.

 

That's

Literally everything about this is wrong

 

Your discussion with Mandalay regarding boost pressure at idle had me curious because I didn't know the answer, but a quick search points to Madalay being correct on this one:
https://www.google.com/search?q=can+a+turbo+have+a+little+boost+at+idle+called+anti-lag&oq=can+a+turbo+have+a+little+boost+at+idle+called+anti-lag&gs_lcrp=EgRlZGdlKgYIABBFGDkyBggAEEUYOTIKCAEQABiABBiiBDIHCAIQABjvBTIHCAMQABjvBTIKCAQQABiiBBiJBTIKCAUQABiiBBiJBdIBCTI0MTE5ajBqMagCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

There's a big difference between tuning company anti lag, transitory off throttle anti lag (when you lift momentarily or during a shift) and idling at a red light

The "anti lag" that tuning companies put out are generally for highway pulls, that is you're sitting at 100kph or something, floor it and for a brief moment the engine maintains revs but is building boost to eliminate lag before it then releases it so you get a good 60-100mph time. It's like launch control for rolling races. You do this by opening the throttle fully, advancing exhaust valve timing so the stronger cylinder charge does less work on the pistons and more on the turbine.

This is entirely different than what anti lag does in race cars (wrc or group a or group b pioneered it) where you simply pull ignition timing (done implementations at least) to send the combustion charge through the turbine to keep it spinning resulting in flames coming out the exhaust.

Both these systems are extremely damaging to the turbo (you're sending "still combusting" gasses directly onto the turbo as opposed to a charge which has spent a decent amount of its energy already and cooled somewhat), are only active for a handful of seconds or so each time (rally corners are relatively short), and longevity is not an issue when rebuilds after every stage is common practice.

Absolutely NO ONE implements race anti lag at IDLE (stopped at a red light) unless you are on rebuilding turbos each time you visit the petrol station.

It appears someone doesn't understand the difference between idle and off-throttle

Even if there is an implementation of mild anti lag (which I'm highly doubtful of), it simply would not affect throttle response in the use case of where you've been cruising and then suddenly want to give it the beans.