Then you were lucky with the tolerances of the shaft and pulley bore. One of my last pumps had such tolerance limits, that installing the pulley without supporting the impeller end of the shaft would have pushed the shaft out and destroyed the seal. So why taking the risk? I see absolutely no benefit in installing the pulley after it's put onto the engine. I have a small video snippet, which shows, what's possible regarding bearing inner race and shaft tolerances. What do you think what happens with the one piece seal if you don't support the shaft on the impeller end while installing a pulley with the bore on the lower tolerance limit? Best Martin
Friends, Thanks for all your comments, I will weigh them all carefully, and rest assured I will make the wrong decision Ha. One of the reasons I always put the pulley on later was because it gave me more access. I have another comment/question for your purvey, this engine came with bolts holding the water pump on, but I think I'm going replace it with studs like on my other car. I think it will be easy to align and support the water pump while mounting it, you have the water pump housing o ring, and hoses on the rear of that unit. Plus you have to take the timing covers off on this early car to get it off anyways. I have another comment that will stir up some controversy. I had my other car for 30 years now and I don't hesitate using a torque wrench on stuff like suspension and Steel on Steel parts but it seems like every time I torque something into the aluminum block it strips the threads, no matter how careful I am then I have to put in a timesert, which is not always exactly perfectly straight, no matter how you try to do that. These cars are not daily drivers even though I drive them weekly. I'm thinking about just tightening everything up snug. These old engines blocks are so porous, my experience is sometimes the correct torque is just too much for some of the engine threads to hold. I'm not an expert like some of you here, I'm not that strong anymore so if I crank it down with a short ratchet, I'm getting it on as tight as it needs to be, but without too much extra torque. Going through all these water pump threads I found one by rifle driver. Is he still here, anyway he says you have to torque the water pump. This engine was rebuild by John Hajduck, before he passed away, and has a variety of helicoils and timeserts, a couple which have failed unfortunately.... Any thoughts on that small cone washer. My thoughts are because this car came with the smaller bearing pumps as did my other one originally, when they were swapped out to the larger bearing pumps everyone had to do some kind of modifications so that they would fit the pulley. On the pulley pictured above it has an indentation where the wide part of the cone washer fits, with a narrow side riding on the inner race of the outer bearing. I'm not sure how much this missaligned the belt, but it is on my other car as we speak, so when next time I start it I will go check to see if there is any visible misalignment. Of course I'm open for any comments/advice etc! Thanks to all of you. I forgot how much I miss being on this forum. It is never perfect, but it's always informative, and for me these cars are such a passion, working on them is like an honor, and I appreciate everyone's input. This whole process may be more like therapy for me than it is auto repair! ha Rob
Well you can mitigate your problem by making sure the pulley freely fits the shaft without an interference fit before you install it. If you do it your way and the parallelism is off relative to the other pulleys how are you going to fix that? The way I mentioned above thinks of this before it can become a problem.
I'm with you Rob. I will torque critical fasteners but just go by feel for everything else. I still don't use sonic testers for belts and adjust them by feel too. The right answer is to always use a torque wrench but reality and practicality are not always the same. I would always tell someone else to use a torque wrench. That's the only way you know if the factory specified torque is achieved. One big issue is when was the last time anyone reading calibrated their torque wrench? Then add that to some specs in the WSM as just plain wrong or updated? Working on Ferraris which are not factory mass produced like a Ford means you have to think more about how you work on them vs. following the exact instructions is nauseating detail from GM. You have to think about making that change from bolts to studs and what that means. For example if you stud the water pump you will minimize wear on the housing. The precision of the housing to stud interface will have closer tolerance and hold torque better than a bolt that goes in and out every time the pump is removed maybe 5 times in 50 years with bolts but perhaps never violating the housing threads of aluminum if studs went in at the factory. Any car with a bunch for timeserts and helicoils is an abused car. Some guys are better with hammers than screw drivers. While I have used timeserts and helicoils many many times I have never caused one to be needed. These cars work very well if we just pay attention when we fix them. I don't know the math to explain it but if you torque a bolt into aluminum vs. using a stud and torquing the nut onto the stud you have a much greater chance of wreaking the aluminum with the bolt. There is a good reason we use studs in the aluminum block and not just bolt the heads to the aluminum block.
One caution here: corrosion sometimes happens with water pump fasteners, and if it does studs are way harder to deal with than bolts.
Friends, Thanks for the comments Bille Bob and Eric. Unfortunately sometimes when I was torquing something down, such as the bell housing I have got that sinking feeling that the threads have given up and the stud starts backing out, for me it is one of the worst feelings... I've always use copper anti seize on threads and fasteners. Is there something new or better that works with steel and aluminum? Rob
Rob, copper and aluminium is the worst case. It forms a galvanic element with the aluminium as the "victim". It builds a rock hard corrosion product, which will damage the threads while undoing a bolt or stud. I have seen several stripped spark plug threads, where copper anti seize was used. Use ceramic stuff. Best Martin
Friends, The good news is I have not used anything on this engine yet. Can someone suggest a brand. I don’t care if it’s expensive. I just read 10 articles. Some people say nickel others say ceramic, then some say both doesn’t work that good in certain applications, so what I need is something that I can use to put these steel studs into the engine block. Rob The bad news is on my other car I used some of the copper based product , on advice from older mechanics….
It is indeed great for cast iron and steel. I haven't looked for nickel on the electrochemical series chart, but if you want to be safe, don't use anything what contains metals. So ceramic is the safest route. BTW. I learned the hard way. Years ago, though being aware about the electrochemical potential issue, I didn't think about it, when I put some on my wheel hubs, where they touch my magnesium rims. The electrical potential between magnesium and steel is even bigger than between steel and aluminium. So after a season with some drives through rainy conditions I had to remove my wheels with the help of hard kicking with my feet. I don't know, what brands are available in the US. But no need to buy any ripp-off. The cheap ceramic anti seize paste is just as good as the more expensive. No need to purchase snake oil. There are different delivery forms. Like screw caps with an application brush. Or in paint can like form with a wide opening. Or a simple tube. But this is a matter of individual taste. For a little bit of theory I have added a screenshot of a simple chart. The bigger the distance between the two metals, the bigger the reaction. And in our case the aluminium is even the anode (the active metal) and the copper the cathode (the passive metal). When you galvanize a part with ,say zinc, the zinc is the anode and the cathode is the substrate (your part) Image Unavailable, Please Login Best Regards from Germany Martin
Hi all. I've just removed and re-installed ALL the stud bolts on my 308-engine using a torque wrench and correct torque. I only had to repair 3 threads, and they were identified when I removed the studs. My experience is that it is during removal of the studs he threads suffer damage and much less when you re-install the studs. It is important to remove the studs as carefully as can be done. Use heat, lubricant and shock the stud mechanical before you break the studs out with maximum break out torque (Put a nut on the stud and use a small hammer, many blows with low impact!). If it doesn't break out, I cut the studs close to the aluminium surface, weld on a nut on the stud body and then loosen it while it's still hot. If I must install a thread insert I always use a guide to ensure the new cut thread is absolutely vertical (Guide can be a piece of hard wood with a vertical hole in). I always use the smallest possible- and a good quality torque wrench for the stud installation and I test it in my wise after any changes of the torque setting to getting a good feeling of the "click". I'm also always treating the new plated studs with Loctite aluminum anti-seize before installation hoping it will make it easier to remove them next time. Best, Peter Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Peter, That is impressive! Did you consider the nickel or ceramic anti-seize? Is it true that the factory used some helicoils on the water pump holes, etc. Rob
Thanks Rob. I've noticed that some holes (very few) are sleeved with helicoils and that's also showed on the parts drawings as I remember. I don't remember witch holes, but it makes sense if it's some of the holes used for bolted connections. I've never considered anything else than the Loctite anti-seize - no expert in that direction, but I see that the Loctite product is made out of what appears to be fine grinded aluminum powder mixed with some evaporating fluid....I guess it can't harm. Best, Peter
On the early V8s Ferrari studded the water pumps. That caused 2 serious problems. One was the front of the engine needed to be taken apart to change the pump. The front belt cover overhangs the pump on all 2v engines so any pump work required removal of the AC, (also in those days 100% stud mounted) and removal of the cover. There was zero advantage to that assembly method. The other problem was coolant oozed around the studs and seized the pumps to the engine. Replacing a water pump on an early V8 became an expensive nightmare. In 78 or so Ferrari helicoiled the block and started using bolts. Now you could use an end wrench or a crowfoot to remove the bolts and just slide the pump out from under the belt cover. Vastly better design. Installing with studs was stupid. In general anything bolted to the V8 engine by the factory is going into a helicoil. As far as using a torque wrench to install it, only stupid people skip that. Even before standard 8mm bolt torque is achieved there is a very great chance the left side of the pump body will distort and warp and you'll have a coolant leak at the top just to the left of center of the body. In a belt service I routinely remove the pump pulley to facilitate easier removal of the A/C compressor. Putting the pulley on with a tight shaft to pulley fit just is not a problem. With the pump installed the housing will limit rearward travel to a MM or so and as soon as the nut is tightened it is drawn back to its proper position. No seal issues. It has been done that way by many for decades.
All true, but with a shaft to inner bearing race tight fit, installation force will go across the rollers. And that's something I intend to avoid by all means. Best Martin
I suppose when you rebuild one pump every 10 years you would be scared of that. Of the hundreds I've done I have never encountered that. Maybe use better quality parts?
Don't worry: I come from the german rolling bearing industry (INA, later Schaeffler), where I started as a little apprentice and they gave us a sheet of paper to place under the pillow. Among those "Ten Commandments" about roller bearings one was; "Never allow installation force to go across the rollers" BTW, I am curious how many waterpumps have a shortened lifetime, because rebuilding folks don't know, that you have to use C3-bearings and install those with standard play. About quality we don't have to worry over here. Our premium brands like SKF Explorer, SKF, and Schaeffler (formerly F_A_G Kugelfischer) (I use nothing else) are cheap as dirt. We don't use chinese drawer bearings. Look; these are my bibles and bedtime literature I learned by heart (just kidding) Image Unavailable, Please Login Best Martin
I have said this here before so I have already cast and evil spell on myself but my pump failed the day I brought my car home from the late John Apen's home on Sept 6th, 1997. That week I ordered an "upgraded" wp from Ted Rutland and installed it with a friend's help on Sept 13th 1997. It's still working. 70,000 miles (a lot of VERY hard track time early on) and nearly 30 years later. If someone can determine what "upgraded" was back then at Rutlands, you will have the answer to a robust rebuild. My plan is to replace it this winter but part of me wonders if I should bother if its' still functioning well.
I assume you purchased a pump with the one-piece-seal,, because I purchased one in March 1997, which was one of those. (one-piece-seal). Talking about "upgraded". The one-piece seal was a great upgrade over the two predessesor two-piece-seals. I rebuilt that pump in 2012 while doing a cambelt job, but it was not necessary. It was still perfect. So my suggestion for you. Don't replace it. Check it. If here' s no noticeable play and when you turn it by hand it feels smooth and if there are no signs of leaking through the weep hole, let it alone. Otherwise rebuild it. Never ever replace it with that chinese junk, which is offered new. Best from Germany Martin
So everyone with a car before 1978 except the originality purists is strongly adviced to modify the pump installation threads with helicoils and convert to bolts on occasion like a belt job. This info I would have needed in March 1997, when I repaced my waterpump for the first time and though having a late carb car from '80 I tore everything apart including emptying my A/C freshly filled four weeks earlier :/ Best Martin
I agree with Martin, if it's not leaking I would leave it be. I rebuilt the water pump on my 328 using C3 bearings and Martin's single piece seal technique in 2014 and it has been working flawlessly for over a decade.
I am really shocked more than anything else. If it failed tomorrow, I damn well got my money's worth, no question about that.
Many folks were surprised, when Ferrari waterpumps suddenly got reliable after they introduced the one-piece-seal. BTW. When I developed my one-piece-seal modification for the early pumps, Ettore mentions, I talked a lot to a manufacturer of these seals and they said, that they are good for a 1 million truck miles. Best Martin
Hey Ettore, Pleased to meet you here, Not heard anything for a long time. Here's a picture when I visited your famous namesake. Image Unavailable, Please Login Best Martin
