328 4V Heads vs 355 5V Heads

Pictures would be amazing!.....when you're ready

@FastandSlow - is there an actual project? have you bought a car? have you considered fitting a V12?

 

OMG! where to start? Seems i have opened up a proverbial can of amazing ideas, research and experience. Well, i'm glad i'm not alone in modifying a Ferrari although it definitely comes with a stigma (even driving one sometimes), i myself am someone that walks alone until i find i people i resonate with, clubs generally make me feel uncomfortable a bit like politics. So nice to discover like-minded people! That being said i am at the very beginning of this journey compared to those of you that have made comments on this thread.

You know what, you guys almost deterred me from taking another step in the direction of delving into this area as i really am inexperienced but find it all so fascinating. I think we all need teachers in life, whether its how to brush your teeth as a child or how to do anything that requires expertise in an unknown field. What i am learning in general is to not rush into things without a clear understanding of the pitfalls and of course the finacial aspects.

@Ferraripilot Firstly, let me acknowledge your comment as i forgot, such an in depth answer and much appreciated as a newbie. As for everyone else i have to say i am overwhelmed with the amount of knowledge and experience in this thread and to be honest it is going to take more time to digest it. Like i said, suspension, brakes, exhaust and paint are being sorted right now, this should take about 2-3 months to complete due to shipping and just scheduling the different people working on the car... yes is not cheap to have qualified people on the job but it's cheaper than me effing it up, redoing it and never getting it finished. I realized though other projects in the past that my emotions overide logic in a way that is not practical when patience is reqiured to acheive your goal. That's why i am finding this community so helpful, Credit to anyone that has the engineering gene, as intersted as i am in those aspects what i really want to do is drive rather than tinker or develop solutions that take an enourmous amount of skill and patience. That's not to say i'm shallow it just not my forte.

I would like to respond more on your individual comments but to be honest my head is spinning and will be pondering over everything that has been said before i can come to any conclusions.

Thank you for all your advice.

Here's a little pic i made (someone elses original photo, unknown) of what my project will hopefully look like, besides it's a great desktop pic.
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What car are you working? Can you share the vin (people seem to love to follow the history of cars?

Then I'll say "... suspension, brakes, exhaust and paint are being sorted right now, this should take about 2-3 months to complete...", 2-3 months seems insanely fast to sort any 1 of the items on that list but maybe I'm misunderstanding the project and thinking you are doing aftermarket everything and you mean repairing/refurbishing?

A caution, a custom engine needs almost certainly needs custom exhaust, I'd suggest you hold on doing anything there until you've decided what the engine is.

Last, I know how good these cars look with the wheels up in the fenders as shown but its not actually drivable like that....well...maybe with very narrow tires or stretched fenders or the tires will bang into the fenders. Are you doing a body kit of some kind? Stock, the chassis sits about 5 1/8" off the ground, I've run mine at 4" and now 3.5"(because I made a mistake in my suspension setup) and it works because I don't cry when the valance scrapes and run pretty (as in extremely) stiff springs so it doesn't bounce or roll much which usually keeps the valance off the ground and tires off the fender. Just keep that in mind I guess.

 

I will add more pictures if i can get the shop painting the car Fly Yellow to take them as they are some distance away from me, Capristo valved will also be fitted close by and hopefully more soon after when yet another shop fitting the Intrax coilovers, bushings and brakes take possesion of the car.

Here's the Info and pics from Intrax if anyone is interested.

In this mail I’ll explain the systems which can be used for your purpose. As icing on the cake our ARC® system is worth thinking about. The ARC® system makes the already very good shock even better. This is because with our ARC® we can fit a bit softer spring with all the benefits (more grip, more traction, less tire wear, easier to drive, more control on the bumps etc.) without the disadvantages of the softer spring (more body roll and pitch). So this perfectly aligns with your demands for a compliant suspension, without compromising on the characteristics.

Keep in mind that for the ARC® we need external reservoirs.

As you probably know all our shocks are custom made. So, we only start producing after we have all the info of the driver and car and of course the order.

We don’t have any shocks on stock, only the raw materials. This way we can make sure that the shocks are exactly that what the car needs and the driver requested. To make the shock as close as possible to the drivers wishes we need some extra information when you decide to order our shocks. We like to know things like:

• For what purpose will the car be used (street, trackday, race, rally etc. or a combination)?
  Daily street use
• What type and size tire will the car drive on?
• What size rim do you use?
  standard 16" wheels at the time of purchase but i will be fittiing the 17" wheels in this photo (link below) made by Alfa9.
• Any other change (compared to standard) on the car that can influence the handling of the car (weight, power, roll cage etc)?
• Wishes?
  ideally lower by 1-2 inches

This information doesn’t have to be exact but the more info we have the better.

I’ll start with our 1K2 system which is adjustable in height and damping.

Intrax chooses one knob for the damping adjustment. With this one knob you can set different damping settings. When you adjust the knob, both rebound and compression will be adjusted in the correct damping force. This unique system makes it very easy and quick to find the correct setup for your driving style and road conditions. Finally, the damping system is equipped with a heat device (thermostat) to insure damping force stability and optimum performance during all different operation temperatures.

Picture 1; 1K2 46-14 light-weight front shock absorber on this picture equipped with our Black Titan coating (see the black spindle)

For the rear we have an 46mm damper.
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2K2
The 2K2 has the same features as the 1K2, so also height and damping adjustable with a thermostat and build out of anodized lightweight materials where possible. The difference is that it is equipped with and external reservoir, so even more volume and an extra adjuster. With the 2K2 (2 knobs 2 adjustments) you can adjust bump and rebound seperatly from each other. So, even more possibilities to personalize the damping.

Picture 3; EXAMPLE of a 46-14 2K2 lightweight shock with the optional ARC® (see the larger black reservoir)

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4-Way
The 4-way is our top product. The damper is adjustable in the low- and high-speed compression, rebound and the overall range of the low-speed compression, these adjustments can all be done separately and have no interference with each other whatsoever. This makes it very good to fine tune the setup. Naturally also this damping system is equipped with a heat device (thermostat) to insure damping force stability and optimum performance during all different operation temperatures.

Picture 5; 4-Way 46mm light weight front shock absorber with the optional Black Titan (see the black piston rod) and ARC® (see the black larger reservoir)
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For the rear we have a 46mm damper.

Picture 6; 4-Way 46-14 light-weight rear shock absorber with the optional Black Titan (see the black piston rod) and ARC® (see the black larger reservoir and thicker hose)

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Options

Black Titan

The shock absorber set can be equipped with the “Black Titan” coating, which will be applied on the guidance- and piston rod. Black Titan is an development from military aircraft industry. Their engines must perform under the toughest conditions, they must function from +40°C up to -30°C. After they fitted their engines with Black Titan, the service interval was increased by 100%. Intrax decided that what is good for their airplane engines must be good for our shock absorbers. The Black Titan coating, which will be applied on the guidance- and piston rod, cannot rust and is extreme hard and smooth. The friction is lowered with these piston rods, reducing oil temperatures, improving traction and extending life time under the severest conditions.

ARC (Anti Roll Control)® (very good for the combination you want)

After years of development Intrax did it. They developed a unique way to drastically reduce unwanted roll (lateral and longitudinal). Your car will have the comfort and all the other benefits of driving with “soft” springs like extra grip and traction, until you take a corner or need to brake then ARC® will control ride height with the feel of a sport/race/rally setup. While driving over a curb, through a putt hole or over jumps the suspension will absorb them like driving with soft springs. At the same time ARC® will make sure that your suspension will roll or pitch minimally. So for the first time you can have the benefits of a soft spring set up without the disadvantages of too much body roll and/or collapsing suspension in putt holes, jumps, curbs.

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Picture 7: 1K2 shocks with ARC®, external reservoirs are needed with the Ferrari 308 shocks when ARC® is ordered.

EMC (Electronic Magnetic Control)

Intrax developed a unique system with which from the inside of the car the shocks can be adjusted (10 settings). With our system you can adjust the front shocks separately from the rear shocks. The EMC is developed with competition in mind so it can cope with large forces and when for some reason the electronics have a failure the shocks will go to the safe middle setting (so no max hard or max soft). For more information don’t hesitate to call or mail us.

EHC (Electronic Height Control)

With this lift system the pre-load (height of the car) on the spring can be changed from inside the car. Intrax developed a compact hydraulic pump with which the preload adjusters can be changed in length which will change the height of the car. Offered for the front but can also be fitted on front and rear shocks. For more information don’t hesitate to call or mail us.

Picture 1: Intrax EHC pump installed in a Ferrari 458
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Picture 2: Intrax EHC pump installed in a Testarossa
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Bushing

We can also build you new bushings for the wishbones. This POM in combination with the steel inserts coated with Black Titan gives a very low friction bushing. An important handling has to be done when you order these bushes, because the Italian car is a car with character and not all the wishbones are exactly the same. After you have pressed in the POM you need to go through them with a reamer H7.

Picture 8; bushing in and next to the wishbone
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What car are you working on (year, model)?

They sound wonderfully expensive

what setup did you order? Did they tell you what spring rates you're getting?

What are you doing to the brakes?

I saw in the shock email you said 17" wheels....tire options are somewhat limited for 17s. 225/45 & 255/40 are available in many options but may not look wide enough if you're doing a body kit. 18" give a lot more options in modern rubber, I guess just keep that in mind

 

I agree on all counts. This is an optomistic ride height expectation and time frame. This was just an artists idea but with the advanced suspension i should be able to get somewhere close, i have talked at length with Donald at Intrax and shown him the same picture, we both understand each other and will probably be a little higher at its lowest setting and higher still for B-road blasts and demanding tracks like the Nurburgring.

I have been quoted roughly 2 months for paint (by an excellent concours painter known for his work with the Ferrari mark). Meanwhile 2 months for the suspension to be built and shipped with the wheel., My plan is get the car in for paint asap (i do not like red, yellow ones are like unicorn sh*t over here) and soon after all the parts should arrive to be fitted by a competent race shop experienced with buillding and prepping F355 cars, brakes will be upgraded by them also..advised to just do uprated lines, fluid and pads for now, big brake kit if needed options at Alfa9Supply

Alfa9 wheels will be fitted with 225/45/17 245/40/17 Michelin Pilot Sport 4S, with a modern tyre and suspension i think this will be sufficient, 255 rears are hard to get a match for the front in this diameter, Pirelli might have something but i kinda like Michelin.
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Capristo Exhaust (currently being built ETA 1 month) will be fitted on the drive back from the paint shop by another Ferrari specialist as it just worked out the guys selling the exhaust (Scuderia Parts) have a shop close by that do work for them and if anything goes wrong with fitment or quality they will work with each other to make it right. I figured i could not go wrong with the valved version, Capristo seem to build a quality product that should improve my car in the meantime (mainly sound but probably a few hp too) not sure i will ever need another as its stainless and probably suited to light engine mods. If i get in deep with the engine i'm sure whoever does the work will know if something else will suit better.

 

@mk e I ordered the 4 way with all the bells and whistles plus bushings. Yes expensive, but really for what you're getting im not sure there's anything like it. Not sure of Intrax's policy on sharing prices but i do see any harm in telling you it was between £10k -£15k. Quite honestly after hearing the price of engine building i feel like a got a deal My original plans was to build a GTO replica which would have had 18's with 335's on the rear, maybe this will evolve into that down the line but for now im in love with this version. I will share the VIN at some point, just not yet.

I will say this because i don't want anyone to feel bad if they are not in a position to spend the kind of money i am obviously spending on their project. I was not born with a silverspoon in my mouth, i grew up in pretty rough neighborhood and have worked every sh*tty job there is, ive done roadwork, supermarkets, resturants, fast food chains. I've always put others needs before myself, i have helped many people young and old become more successful and happy in their lives and fields of endeavor whilst taking no credit for it, I love people to a fault. Finally in these later years of my life Grace has shined down on my financial sitiuation which has been very humble all my life. This is my dream car and if i can share a little of my story with others who aspire to be the custodian for a time of such a peice of art, then i hope it will inspire them to follow their heart, be kind to others, stay humble but don't let others take advantage of you or make you feel bad for fulfilling your dreams.

Wishing you all a wonderful day!

 

First off, never lose your attitude about this. As someone in a similar background with no formal engineering experience and going through this, I'd say everything is way more expensive and takes way longer than you'd expect. So be okay with going slow. Good things take time. Baby Steps....

Find a car suitable to your budget and standard. Get it running as standard and learn about it in a deep way. Learn about all the systems. Look at pictures and schematics. Learn about strengths and weaknesses. Experience it! Appreciate it! You may find that everything you want now, isn't needed. You may find you hate the damn thing and go buy a Porsche!

Come up with a plan. Have stages. Understand all the steps. Learn how certain changes can affect other aspects of the car. Map it all out. Understand what you know and what you don't know.

Execute the plan! Think about how your stages will impact your experience with the car. Will it be down for a month or a year, or even more? (mine's been down seven years due to life circumstances and deciding where I wanted to take my project....)

Please don't get a car, pull it apart and get overwhelmed and quit, unless you are a very experienced builder. It happens more than you think.



Oh and I am quite familiar with Intrax and almost bought a set. Very expensive! All reviews and everything say they are amazing. However, it is easy to get caught up in the "this product is magic" or which one is best when many of the high end companies are similar. All ARC is their fancy term for high compression dampening. They're still in the running for me. I have seen they can be a difficult company to work with if you have any issues. Intrax, nitron, bilstein, KW - they all have amazing products. I am leaning towards Nitron lately because they just moved part of their company near to me and if I have issues, I can work with them directly.

So get a car and build a plan. You can see these guys help. We are a rare group amongst the ferrari community because our cars are old enough they have attracted owners that work on them. They were / are an entry level way into Ferrari's, price wise. They are the first mass produced cars so there's a decent amount of them, parts and growing cottage industry companies supporting them. There is a group here that's been together for a long time, pushing what is possible, an their very smart. The older cars are mostly the expensive object d'art we really shouldn't be messing with this way. The newer cars, all the owners mostly care about is "spec" or what exhaust sounds better and start to get overly complicated with computers. The 308's are mostly old school hot rodding.

So, you can build a hot rod. This group will help you. Go get a car!

 

245/40 isn't a Michelin size here in the US I don't think.....but I other brands I see 24.7" OD and the 225/45 is 25.0 so that will look a bit odd. the 255/40 is 25.0 and a nice match, a few 308 guys have that setup I think, there is a curent thread talking about it
https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/those-of-you-with-17-wheels-what-tire-are-you-running.710408/

I understand not sharing vin...but what what model/year car are you working on?

 

Please let us know your experience with Intrax - I've read mixed reviews.

As to brakes, there are many options, not just those available from Alfa9; Girodisc, Tarox, and Hispec all make brakes for these cars, and they all have their advantages and disadvantages. I've done a deep dive on brakes for these cars, so send me a PM if you'd like more of that opinion.

There is also another option available for the coffin-style wheels (Stratos wheels); Alfa's is a three-piece, but there is a one-piece, forged option as well.

Finally, it's my opinion that losing as much weight as possible should be part of any performance strategy, and you can certainly lose a considerable amount of weight from these cars without sacrificing comfort. Losing weight will not only make the car feel more powerful without having to do anything to the engine, but it will also improve handling.

 

Hi all, @mk here's a pic of my car, it's an 86 uk model. It will be going in for a full service now. I'm very lucky to be dealing with a great netwok of after sales sevice on this car with a lot of knowledgable people, with you guys to ask for assistance also i feel blessed.

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I will say this regarding Intrax, you are not the only person to say that on the forum, I have yet to receive or fit the parts as they take a while to make being tailored to the clients usage and preferences, but Donald Molenaar from Intrax is a great guy, he races on the nurburgring 24hrs and probably knows a thing or two about compliant suspension that handles 270 kmh compressions without bottoming, their 4 way setup offers a lot of tuning options in this regard.

Donald at Intrax didn't just sell me the suspension and give me a receipt, He has gone over with me several times on how exactly i will be using the car and my preferences for a lowered ride height that will not bottom out, they have also done a 328 before at their shop. He has handled communication with Alfa9 supply and gone back and forth with them to get a correct color match to the factory wheels, and discussed sizes and tires. He then connected me with Martin his U.K. distributor and an old school gearhead, Martin put me in touch with Charles Dunn Engineering, a race shop in the UK who just so happens to be in the same town that is prepping and servicing the car, Charles Dunn will be fitting and setting up the suspension, brakes and i will ask if he can also fit the powersteering kit i just purchased.

So all of this unfolded from a conversation with Donald at Intrax who, like yourselves has been supportive and communicative. I will continue to post updates as things move forward with this labour of love, and hopefully this will also dispell further stories of mixed reviews as i do stand up for those that stand by me. Hopfully i can get this car to an autocross event or track and film it in action at some point.

 

Since the suspension upgrades were talked about on this post first i'll just give an update here as the suspension has arrived, here's some pics.
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Looking at pics i discovered this one on Alfa9's website and thought it worth posting here. Always loved the Martini Racing livery.
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Head stud spacing is exactly the same. I have used 355 head gaskets on big bore 308 and 328s many times. My own 328 has 355 gaskets. As far as oil returns go a 328 has 2, a 355 has an additional return that interferes with nothing other than a small section of gasket protruding from the side. All other passages line up just fine.
328 head castings need to be drilled out to use the superior 11mm head studs.

Better in every way to just adapt a complete 355 engine though.

 

Yes, thank you. I noted that I was mistaken.
For our big bore engines due to the 89mm we just have custom cometic Gaskets made.