456/550 engine in a 308?

I was asked for the 2nd time in as many months if I thought a 456/550 engine could be installed in a 308.

My 1st answer was sure!

Now the question is WITHOUT cutting the 308 engine bay to bits. hmmmmm...I don't know. Years ago when I started my build that came out and I just assumed the newer engine was too long but I honestly have no idea how long a 456/550 engine is.

soooo...anybody got a 456 or 550 engine laying around and can take some measurements?

 

You can ask Stefan from Redbaycars. He has a 456 engine in stock for the moment. NO afiliation...
https://redbaycars.com/webshop#!/ferrari-456-m/products/ferrari-456m-v12-5-0x2e-5-litre-type-f116c-engine

 

I imagine the design of a 308 with the engine and sound of a 355… that would be an epic car

 

That would be quite the car...I would think that you would have to modify the wheel base as well. I dont see a 550 engine sitting on top of a 308 gear box, so you'd have to GTO style.

 

Hmmm... I wanna say no. They are BIG engines. Knowing the bore spacing would give a better idea without having one to directly measure. The F133 got out to 90mm bore, so the CL has to be at least 100mm that makes for a very long engine.

They're 65° V12 vs the 60° of the Columbo version prior. So they'll be taller... Huge oil pans, though that can be modified.
F116 is the 456
F133 is the 550/575

 

Yeah, the 65° makes it a tall engine even with the flattened out manifold. Sitting on the 308 gearbox.. can't see that fitting below the deck lid line.. Make sparkplug changing easy though! Just reach right across!

 

It would be quite a car. What I have now is basically the same but built on the older shorter 400 block, but I'm 458cc/cly instead of 456 and same valve sizes so very close and it is amazing to drive but in hindsight seems like the hardest possible way to achieve the goal

At for fitting on the trans...yeah, that requires cutting and welding I'm sure.

 

65 degree makes it less tall than 60 thought

In my car the crank sits 2" lower than standard 308, possible because the 60deg is a much narrower engine than the 90deg V8.

Probably a bad idea and I dismissed it out of hand when I started my project but I said I would find the actual length and give a proper assessment on if there is any way to get it into the engine bay without cutting up the car. The 400 (and older) engines basically bolt into the car once they are force fit onto the trans.

 

Yeah, my bad.. That'll teach me to post before coffee

 

There are I believe 2 308s with 355 engines out there and another couple 308s fitted with 355 heads on the way so it is possible.

But now imagine a V12 with the same 9500 rpm redline but 4 more cylinders

 

@mk e is the proof you can run a V12 in a 308. And seeing the comment above regarding the 355 motor. Most motors should be able to work with a 308, with nuance - the most important being spatial relationship with with the transaxle. Especially if the lower part of the engine case would not fowl or try to take the same space of the transmission, while allowing the crank to hook up to the transfer case. Dry sump engines would be better because they would eliminate the need to engineer the shift shaft going through an oil sump. the shift shaft could just be exposed and enter at the trans opening and less seals to deal with. You would just likely have to design and make an adapter plate from the block to the bell housing. Engine height would be the other concern. With the newer engines, they have larger intake plenums. However, i think the 308 deck lid is easy to design a raised hump, with the existing "floating" red cap and black louvers. Couldn't be done without cutting.

As i am working on the digital fitment of my 360 engine/trans into my GT4, I would say a longitudinal fitment of a v12 into transaxle would be very hard. It's a much longer block. The GT4, 288 and F40 frames are all very close in dimension - especially in the back half of the chassis. I am touching the firewall with the front of the 360 engine and getting perfect alignment of the differential to the wheel hubs. Those CV axle shafts have to go 90 degrees out to the hub to prevent any lift/squat characteristics. The fitment of the entire package is key!

We see @M.Burroughs (the honda 308 build) on his next project - the tube frame F40 body build. He is using an 812 motor. He's trying to keep the chassis dimensions of the wheelbase. He has the mock up going. He is experiencing great challenges with packaging as the firewall is protruding into the driver position. That space is finite. If he wants to keep that body OEM, he has to push himself forward!

Transaxle / transmission selection for a longitudinal is one of the greatest challenges with an extended chassis. Most front engine v12's have a transaxle. The new ones are so computer dependent you wouldn't want to get into the complexity. Most of them aren't manual. So you have to go older and consider some basics. Looking at the 456, which is probably very similar to the 550/575, because they don't need to share space with anything but the rear suspension, they are very long - so those are probably out...

I see two possible solutions while keeping to the ethos "An engine / trans swap in a Ferrari may only be done with other Ferrari parts to remain a true Ferrari". The first is from the V8 family of the 355, 348, Mondial T. These appear to be compact. I am unsure about any bolt patterns for mating the block to the trans and making the main crank fit the clutch / and feeding trans shafts. I would imagine this would require designing custom mating parts but could be done... So I would say this is an option. The other interesting option would be the design of the flat 12 engines from the Boxer and Testarossa engines. This setup is more like a longitudinal but pretty compact version of the 308's. You have a v12 that is already designed for it, but you could probably adapt the newer ones, if you want. Much like the 308, its a lower overall foot print but the engine sits on top. Height might be a concern but workable. If you went with the flat engines, width in the 308 engine bay might be a concern. We'd have to look at all these and see what shifting mechanism would work - shafts or cables.

 

Im pretty sure a TR eng/trans would fit. Way back Newman measured one for me and if remember being convinced it was possible but you lose the trunk.

 

I did. It fits (sort of) but the upper control arm mount becomes a thorn in your side and no trunk.

 

Right, I was forgetting the A-arm mount. The only really thing with this swap it that one of your QV (or 355) head 3.6 builds is lighter and makes the same hp so it would need to be a built TR engine to make sense I guess

I pinged an ebay sell who has a 456 and a 599 to request a few dimensions....hopefully he responds.

 

a 308 with a 599 engine... that would be epic.... and a bit uncontrollable.