R12 freon

How do you guys deal with the old R12 freon problem? I need to charge the A/C of my TR and obviously R12 is almost impossible to find anymore. Is the only option upgrading the system to R134? Some people say that you only need to drain the system and add the new R134 freon, other say, that the process is much more complicated. I also hear, that you should never buy an aftermarket dehydrator filter, as most of them are not good quality. Not sure if Ferrari still offers OEM one though...

 

as Prof.Irwin Corey used to say : "i'm not sure how it's done, but it's doable anyway".

 

I was advised to keep the r12 if you could get it, it works much better in our marginal Ferrari air conditioning systems than r134, if you switch to 134, you have to change out hoses seals blah blah blah blah blah.
I had a new AC compressor installed in my car during my recent major, and with r12 properly filled I'm getting 39° air out of my center vents, pretty good for an 1988 Ferrari.
I managed to six cans of r12 on Facebook marketplace over the last year or two, I keep them in reserve for when I need to recharge. Usually available for about $50 each.
Alden

 

If you can take the time to search out the 12 you will be better off. Your thoughts on the china dehydrators is sound as well. I converted several systems, and they never worked very well. My Ferrari is still on 12 and works very well and will stay on it. My '91 911 is converted and might as well not have an AC system. The 1lb cans are still out there if you look. I struck gold about a month ago when a close friend was cleaning out his garage and he gave me 13 USA made cans, so I am good to go for a long time.

 

An R12 system PROPERLY converted to R134 will work just as well as a R12 system. Anyone telling you otherwise is not doing a proper conversion.
R12 oil is not compatible with R134. Hoses must be a nylon lined barrier hose not rubber lined. Some models we upgrade the condenser fan. Evacuation of the system to 500 microns is critical and on some older cars it required us to leave on the vacuum pump overnight. Most shops don't even own or know what a micron gauge is.

 

I've had good luck finding R12 at garage sales. I got a case for a couple dollars per bottle. It is not illegal to buy existing stocks privately.

You can also buy it on eBay - usually expensive but sometimes you'll find someone just clearing stuff out. There is usually a requirement you sign a waiver that it will be installed by a licensed HVAC specialist.

 

I’ve been able to find R12 on Mercari and eBay. In the last 6 months I’ve bought 9 bottles- 3 14oz and 6 12oz so I’m good for years. I paid $25-36 per can but I got good deals. If you set up alerts for R12 you can find it for cheaper than $50 a can. It’s easy to do it at home too once you get the hose and the can tap/adapter.

 

FYI there are 2 12 oz cans on eBay right now for $63.99 shipped.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=duracool+r12

Compatible with R12. No need to change anything.

 

I use R12 regularly and have 140 or so lbs in stock right now. As already described conversion is far more than just blowing in different freon.

Have no idea what you mean about aftermarket driers. Many of the after market brands are also OE suppliers much like spark plugs. Like anything there is good and bad of everything.

 

I'll just leave this here, there's lots of info out there that r12 is much more efficient than 134 in systems designed for r12. My own personal experience reflects that truth.
Alden

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Envirosafe/Arctic Air (new version all over ebay now) is NOT R12. It's subpar Butane/Propane substitute.

If you've got a link to actual DuPont/Sercon/Interdynamics/National/Chargette/etc. R12, send it to me.

 

Who said anything about those products? If you go to eBay and search R12 refrigerant there are two cans there now- Interdynamics R12. So often people come with out of place hostility and/or condescension I just don’t get it…

 

I did. I even searched the specific brands. I do this every once in a while, because I have several R12 cars.
Nothing came up except the related equipment, retrofit kits to 134, and lots of Envirosafe/Arctic Air. Pages of those.

 

https://ebay.us/m/ScSPb6

 

Thank you. Interesting that it didn't come up in my searches. I suspect that ebay might hide them in certain regions.
I didn't intend any hostility.

I've got several cases of a variety of those I mentioned (some unopened, some just 3 or 4 loose cans), which I hope is more than I'll ever need, but someone here might need these two (can't say that I'm not tempted). The price is considerably higher than the most I've paid.

 

Using Freon does not seem right to me given the nasty environmental impact. If this is all about performance, the hydrocarbon substitutes (actually a purified byproduct of shale gas, i.e butane/propane) do offer a higher cooling capability than R12.

If you want to stick to a substitute that's compatible with the rubber and the old oil, and won't make your AC shop nervous (they do not like hydrocarbons as they are often used in conjunction with sealants that plug their expensive tools), R416 is the way to go . R416 is 134 plus a dab of Hydrocarbon that takes care of the old oil.

Obviously the proper way to do it is to flush the system of all the old oil, replace the hose, pour some POE oil and use straight R134.

R416/R134 are not as efficient, but a bigger condenser does not cost much (I paid less than $100 for my 400i given that a very common light truck condenser was an exact match).

 

That looks interesting. Their original website only ships to USA though.

That's the other issue, I think such things are forbidden by the posts in Europe and they can not be shipped via normal post. But I think they should be OK to be shipped via courier.

 

You can find it all over EU.

https://www.multitanks.com/fr/gaz-refrigerants-de-remplacement-aux-r12-r134a-et-1234yf/3877-recharge-clim-auto-duracool-12a-economie-ecologie-et-canette-auto-obturante-3760373882074.html


In BG - other brand but should be OK. Just make sure you follow directions or better yet, let your mechanic do it.

https://www.emag.bg/komplekt-climeo-2x400ml-markuch-s-manometyr-ekologichen-hladilen-agent-r134a-r12-za-avtoserviz-clim-400-2p-w-5907378717620/pd/DLYNXF3BM/


Converting to 134A info
https://griffiths.com/ac-system-help-introduction/r134a-vs-r12/

 

Euro bureaucracy is considerably more damaging to the environment.

 

I also asked chatgpt and it said, that there is another direct modern replacement of the R12 freon and it's called R‑426A (also called RS‑24). Does anyone know about this product?

 

100000000000% agree.

 

https://gas-servei.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/Technical-data-sheet-R-426A-RS24-Gas-Servei-1.pdf

 

Not a valid reason to use a dirty gas that will deter all AC shop to touch it. Using freon means you basically cannot have your AC serviced anymore.

If all that Brussels asks me is to use another fluid but let me drive my vintage car even in the low emission zone, I am more than happy. (Yes, they have accepted an exemption for classical cars...)

 

Sound like coercion.

They're very generous to give you access to public property paid for by taxpayers like you.


Meanwhile "eco" EU burning wood like in the stone age:

"We can see that firewood covers 41.2% of renewable energy inputs, far ahead of hydraulic, wind and solar power!
If we focus on heat production, in France, 21.3% of energy comes from renewable sources. Biomass represents 78.6% of this renewable energy.
Indeed, combining the individual wood heating devices used by 50% of households in France puts firewood far ahead of heat pumps (10.2%) and solar heating (2.3%) when it comes to producing heat from renewable energy sources."

https://www.stuv.com/fr/node/5235


Dirtier than US

https://aqicn.org/map/europe/