I was asked for the 2nd time in as many months if I thought a 456/550 engine could be installed in a 308. My 1st answer was sure! Now the question is WITHOUT cutting the 308 engine bay to bits. hmmmmm...I don't know. Years ago when I started my build that came out and I just assumed the newer engine was too long but I honestly have no idea how long a 456/550 engine is. soooo...anybody got a 456 or 550 engine laying around and can take some measurements?
You can ask Stefan from Redbaycars. He has a 456 engine in stock for the moment. NO afiliation... https://redbaycars.com/webshop#!/ferrari-456-m/products/ferrari-456m-v12-5-0x2e-5-litre-type-f116c-engine
That would be quite the car...I would think that you would have to modify the wheel base as well. I dont see a 550 engine sitting on top of a 308 gear box, so you'd have to GTO style.
Hmmm... I wanna say no. They are BIG engines. Knowing the bore spacing would give a better idea without having one to directly measure. The F133 got out to 90mm bore, so the CL has to be at least 100mm that makes for a very long engine. They're 65° V12 vs the 60° of the Columbo version prior. So they'll be taller... Huge oil pans, though that can be modified. F116 is the 456 F133 is the 550/575
Yeah, the 65° makes it a tall engine even with the flattened out manifold. Sitting on the 308 gearbox.. can't see that fitting below the deck lid line.. Make sparkplug changing easy though! Just reach right across!
It would be quite a car. What I have now is basically the same but built on the older shorter 400 block, but I'm 458cc/cly instead of 456 and same valve sizes so very close and it is amazing to drive but in hindsight seems like the hardest possible way to achieve the goal At for fitting on the trans...yeah, that requires cutting and welding I'm sure.
65 degree makes it less tall than 60 thought In my car the crank sits 2" lower than standard 308, possible because the 60deg is a much narrower engine than the 90deg V8. Probably a bad idea and I dismissed it out of hand when I started my project but I said I would find the actual length and give a proper assessment on if there is any way to get it into the engine bay without cutting up the car. The 400 (and older) engines basically bolt into the car once they are force fit onto the trans.
There are I believe 2 308s with 355 engines out there and another couple 308s fitted with 355 heads on the way so it is possible. But now imagine a V12 with the same 9500 rpm redline but 4 more cylinders
@mk e is the proof you can run a V12 in a 308. And seeing the comment above regarding the 355 motor. Most motors should be able to work with a 308, with nuance - the most important being spatial relationship with with the transaxle. Especially if the lower part of the engine case would not fowl or try to take the same space of the transmission, while allowing the crank to hook up to the transfer case. Dry sump engines would be better because they would eliminate the need to engineer the shift shaft going through an oil sump. the shift shaft could just be exposed and enter at the trans opening and less seals to deal with. You would just likely have to design and make an adapter plate from the block to the bell housing. Engine height would be the other concern. With the newer engines, they have larger intake plenums. However, i think the 308 deck lid is easy to design a raised hump, with the existing "floating" red cap and black louvers. Couldn't be done without cutting. As i am working on the digital fitment of my 360 engine/trans into my GT4, I would say a longitudinal fitment of a v12 into transaxle would be very hard. It's a much longer block. The GT4, 288 and F40 frames are all very close in dimension - especially in the back half of the chassis. I am touching the firewall with the front of the 360 engine and getting perfect alignment of the differential to the wheel hubs. Those CV axle shafts have to go 90 degrees out to the hub to prevent any lift/squat characteristics. The fitment of the entire package is key! We see @M.Burroughs (the honda 308 build) on his next project - the tube frame F40 body build. He is using an 812 motor. He's trying to keep the chassis dimensions of the wheelbase. He has the mock up going. He is experiencing great challenges with packaging as the firewall is protruding into the driver position. That space is finite. If he wants to keep that body OEM, he has to push himself forward! Transaxle / transmission selection for a longitudinal is one of the greatest challenges with an extended chassis. Most front engine v12's have a transaxle. The new ones are so computer dependent you wouldn't want to get into the complexity. Most of them aren't manual. So you have to go older and consider some basics. Looking at the 456, which is probably very similar to the 550/575, because they don't need to share space with anything but the rear suspension, they are very long - so those are probably out... I see two possible solutions while keeping to the ethos "An engine / trans swap in a Ferrari may only be done with other Ferrari parts to remain a true Ferrari". The first is from the V8 family of the 355, 348, Mondial T. These appear to be compact. I am unsure about any bolt patterns for mating the block to the trans and making the main crank fit the clutch / and feeding trans shafts. I would imagine this would require designing custom mating parts but could be done... So I would say this is an option. The other interesting option would be the design of the flat 12 engines from the Boxer and Testarossa engines. This setup is more like a longitudinal but pretty compact version of the 308's. You have a v12 that is already designed for it, but you could probably adapt the newer ones, if you want. Much like the 308, its a lower overall foot print but the engine sits on top. Height might be a concern but workable. If you went with the flat engines, width in the 308 engine bay might be a concern. We'd have to look at all these and see what shifting mechanism would work - shafts or cables.
Im pretty sure a TR eng/trans would fit. Way back Newman measured one for me and if remember being convinced it was possible but you lose the trunk.
Right, I was forgetting the A-arm mount. The only really thing with this swap it that one of your QV (or 355) head 3.6 builds is lighter and makes the same hp so it would need to be a built TR engine to make sense I guess I pinged an ebay sell who has a 456 and a 599 to request a few dimensions....hopefully he responds.
599 guy says The motor long block is roughly 33" length, 22" width, 20" height. The 400 is about 31.5 bellhousing to crank nose then the damper adds 2.5" for about 34" total and about 21.5 wide....I think a 599 fits but the drivers side fuel tank may need to come out or be loose to get it through the opening.
Roughly 33.. so + 3" I honestly don't think it'll fit, I've worked on enough of those big V12 's they are loooong. But who knows
It looks like the cam covers are quite a bit longer than the 400 so it looks long, but the front and rear have been shortened so the total length looks doable....but its not my call. Im not sure Sean's much smarter than me though so there's hope he'll make a poor choice
You have a 400 too? The 599 is 620hp, a 400 is 340hp?....so its nearly double if it can be made to fit height wise and I suspect ITBs would add a touch more ....but my goodness would it be a fun 308. Not as funny as mine but pretty nice
300 and something HP but 4006lbs running on fumes with a turbo 400 transmission. At least I know the turbo 400 wont give up with a stout engine in front of it. I've debated a 456 or 550 swap for years and I think with ITB's like on yours hood clearance wont be an issue. The 456 plenums might actually clear and with twin throttle bodies aimed at the fenders, air boxes would be a breeze.
A 328 or 308 that sounds like a 355 would be totally non period correct, so I completely disagree , respectfully. Tubi is the period correct exhaust for these Ferraris, they offer the absolute best exhaust note for these machines. What would have been epic is Ferrari designing the 308 , 328 with 300 crankshaft HP . I myself would never want my 328 to sound other that the way it does,certainly not like a 355 . By the way, I love the scream of a 355 ripping down the freeway, its just not the way a 308 / 328 should sound.Just my 2 cents.
My 599 is almost 2 tonnes and its scary when you get on it... I cant imagine what it would be in a 308 chassis.... Un controllable for sure.... to Deadly!
