R12 freon

Dirtier than US is a far stretch... Europe is the only area in the world that has reduced significantly its emissions footprint since the Kyoto agreement.

Like many I've bought a wood pellet boiler as we had to reduce gas imports from Russia. Works quite well actually. It's just like freon: if I am asked to refrain from using one type of commodities, and offered to use a substitute that works reasonably well at an afordable cost, I am fine with that.

If we can afford our expensive toys, let's not pretend we cannot afford a proper AC shop that will recharge the car with a legal gas. Back then POE oil and r416 ended up at 250€, and the car was holding the charge 3 years later. Hydrocarbon is even cheaper.

Does it really make sense to grab some illegal gas that has been stored in dubious rusty containers for the last 20 years? I would personnaly never refill my car with the ugly looking r12 cans that were spoted on ebay.

 

And what exactly is illegal about R12 being sold on Ebay? I buy and use R12 regularly and am in every way in compliance with all applicable laws.

 

The OP is based in Europe, so cannot source freon "legaly" (was still legal in Switzerland a few years ago, not even sure it still is).

I would rather let a proper AC shop refill the car with a legal gas rather than refill the car on my own with a gas of dubious origin. Refilling on your own usually mean you do not have the tools to pull the vacuum, you cannot acurarely monitor the amount of gas filled in, no way to check the oil, etc...

r12 cools better but if the refill is not properly done, it will work much worse than the legal stuff and may damage the AC in the long run (as the 40 years old oil cannot be replaced in this case).

Professional service will work better regardless of the gas used.

 

Been doing it for 48 years professionally.

 

I redid my Mondial 3.2 with R134 many years ago. You have to flush the old system, put in a new compatible oil, change the hose O rings to the green ones, and it cools as well as it did with the R12. I added two extension hoses so I can test pressures and top up easily from the engine bay of the car. The downside is the old long rubber hoses from the engine to the front of the car will diffuse some of the coolant out, so after a year it needs a can of R134 to top up. The replacement of hoses with barrier hoses seems like a difficult project, there are no proper kits to do this and the routing of the hose with the fittings on looks problematic. I have no evidence of anyone having actually done a barrier hose replacement on a Mondial that would solve for the loss of coolant as noted. But that would be required for a gold standard conversion. Maybe the hoses on the Testarossa are easier to route and replace, so I can't speak to your specific model.

The propane formulas (R12a) that can be used in the old R12 systems absolutely work without any modifications to the system and cool very well. The issue is a propane leak in a frontal collision where the condensor would likely be damaged, so I think it is not legal in the US. It is legal in Europe, Canada, etc.

Our old 80's cars with body on frame actually have good frontal crash protection, albeit generally poor side impact protection. It would be a shame to get into a minor front end collision, only to have your car blow up. Probably a fluke low risk scenario, but as with anything low probability, that still statistically means it can/will happen.

So after all the consideration, I accepted the r134 with an annual top up as my solution. Maybe some day I will set the barrier hose replacement precedent for my model.

 

Are you planing to replace the dryer and check the oil volume? Checking the proper operation of the 40 years old expansion valve would also make sense.

Rotary compressor and parrallel flow condensers are much more delicate than a piston compressor mated to a serpentine. You don't want such setup to swallow desicant from a failed dryer.

 

where & how did they ship? Ebay pulled my freon add, after I sold 3 cans in one sale. I have a pile of it, including a 30 pound jug. Also shipping is terrible. I could not get the post office or UPS to ship it, ground.

 

LOL - for Canada, maybe.
In places like Texas, which get real heat, NOPE. Not even close. Needs a much larger condenser, evaporator, and fan, to come "close".

You are correct that hoses (even new) for R12 will leak the smaller R134 molecules, but I think that all hoses are made to R134 spec now, which, if you are replacing hoses to refurbish your good R12 system, should help contain your R12 even better.

 

The old rubber requires some mineral oil to be leak proof. Unfortunately the R134 does not circulate the mineral oil in the system. That why you need a bit of hydrocarbon together with the gas in order to circulate the oil in the system. (https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/a-c-converting-r12-system-to-r134a.44299/#post-566127).

On the plus side the Ferrari uses some very thick hoses, as long as it is coated with oil (i.e the system is operated on a regular basis), it can hold a charge for a reasonable amount of time.

 

Understood, albeit 90 degree days in Toronto are not uncommon for some of the summer. I was surprised by how well the cooling remained after the conversion even in these hot temperatures.

 

If the 40 years old mesh screen fails the desiccant is spread on the whole system and plays havoc with the compressor, the expansion valve and the condenser. I am no Testarossa expert, but it seems to me it's got a rotary compressor and a parallel flow condenser. Unlike a York / Serpentine setup, once the debris are in, you cannot flush the condenser (In other words, if the filter fails half of your AC is toast.)

As you said it's a precious car, so why cut corners on a 4€ filter?

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This issue is the $4 filter is probably made by the same manufacturer or even the the same plant as the ones costing more and branded differently. Unless someone can prove where something is made, and articulate the quality control with some tangible data and support, buying cheap things makes sense, or more accurately buying at higher prices does not in itself get you the better product.

Specifically, Four Seasons has its filters and hosesmade in China via a joint venture. The China joint venture also makes the identical parts for many other brands, and is an OEM manufacturer so probably is installed by many car manufacturers new at the factory. The Four Seasons remanufactured compressors are made mostly in Mexico, and have a bad quality control reputation but some new ones are made in the USA, and possibly Germany and India depending on the market. But many of the new ones are made in Mexico and China and can also be of roulette wheel quality. Four Seasons is itself owned by Standard Motor Products, which is a much larger OEM supplier, so many Four Seasons products are factory for many OEM's, auto truck, heavy equipment etc.

I understand that Ferrari sources most of its current climate control and ac components through Halla Visteon, which in turn manufacturers most of the parts in China including the filter driers. They also have some legacy Czech and Canadian plants but all R&D is done in China. You might find some Zexel ac climate control parts on a new Ferrari, which used to be US Texas and Illinois based long ago but is now part of France based Valeo (after some earlier ownership by Bosch), with parts manufacturered in any number of global plants but mostly all in China. You might find some Denso components too, but those are likely made in China now as well although I am not certain how Denso operates. It is possible some aspects of the systems are actually proprietary designs of Ferrari, they do have some in house design capabilities, maybe for some model's compressors? And with that perhaps they exert some unique quality control over the plants that serve many OEM's but I have no knowledge of how they might do that beyond saying they do that.

I think people have lost track of how much manufacturing has been lost in the West, it is mind boggling. Hard to imagine unwinding all of these global supply chains in favour of reshoring, but I suppose one could do it the long term will was there.

So with all that, good luck trying to correlate quality with price. Relying on actual mechanic and feild experiences with various parts, although anecdotal, is as good as any reason to prefer certain manufacturers to guage what products have consistent quality. Absent that, just buying the lowest price item and taking your chances is a sensible response to the reality of our times.

 

Probably, but no matter.how, in the long run even the highest quality parts should be trashed. I would not keep a 50 years old baldwin filter in my car, even if I really like the brand.

The AC dryer is filled with liquidsl, and capture lots of water. I never cut open one, but after a few decades submersed in contaminated fluids, I would not expect the mesh screens to be in perfect conditions.

As far as who you trust, it's a matter of personnal choice. Even if the product is equaly poor I prefer to put my money on a distributor who backs his products. FourSeason is one of them. At that price point it's a no brainer, i prefer to buy from them rather than from a chinese online store.