430 Engine Oil: High copper content.

Anyone had this from an oil sample test?

My 430 oil is 60ppm copper.

Cause unknown, any suggestions?

Thanks.

 

How did you get oil.sample..was in the middle of a drain ?



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It would also help if you tell us how many miles on car and and on oil ..360 or 430

If you attach the report ..even better ..just blackout your personal info

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Think his title says 430. But yes you can get a smaple during a drain and send out.

 

That wasn't my question ..I do it all the time.on my cars ..my question (sorry not clear) was if the sample was taken in the middle of the drain or in the beginning...the reason is if taken right from the beginning he may have gotten containments from the crush washer ..just a theory


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Gotcha

 

My guess, big end bronze bearings. Check for weak oil pressure, 1st symptom.

 

Why do oil tests? What are you going to do based on the tests other than maybe change brands or oil weight?

 

F430. 35k miles. Oil pressure is normal.

I assume the sample was taken at the correct point as these are experienced testers.

Copper reading is 60ppm after 1,500-mile use interval from new oil

But only 20ppm after 600-mile use interval from new oil.

Previously, at 30k miles the reading was around 10ppm copper.

No change in any other wear readings. (ie iron)

Questions: Do Ferrari dealers or independent service specialists undertake these oil tests on F430’s routinely?

What I’d like to know is has anyone else had this and what was the cause & remedy?

The car is running 100% & has had comprehensive routine servicing.

Thanks.

 

Show us the oil report, I shared mine .. what is their comment? I got 8 ppm last time and 12ppm a year back. Amsoil and Redline respectively.

 

Do the main or rod bearings have a copper layer within? If you haven't thrown out the old oil filter I'd cut it open to inspect.

 

I don't have knowledge of how Ferrari rod bearings are built; but my M3 had very high copper content and one of the lower bearings was a goner. I changed my rod bearings just in time to save the engine... I caught it with a Blackstone oil analysis. I would not drive the car anymore with such high copper content; but I am not familiar with what else is copper in Ferrari (not much apart from valve guides in BMW).

EDIT: I just want to add that engine can feel very strong and normal (it still has good compression and all, so power and general running/startup is not affected) , but when you hear that main rod knock... it's gone.

 

What was ppm of the copper vs normal.on the bmw

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I just looked at the report; copper was twice the average for the engine/miles, but lead (outside layer of rod bearings in M3) was 4 times the average, which was suspect for rod bearings ( and it was). Here is their comment:

Lead was 27ppm (average of 7) and copper was 5 (average of 2)

Copper, lead, and tin are the metals that show bearing wear for the S65 engines used in the E92 M3. Universal averages show typical wear after ~5,000 miles on the oil. Copper is a little high, and lead is abnormal. Lead is from the outermost layer of the bearings, and if that babbitt layer has worn through, copper could also be from bearings. Copper can be from other bronze parts, too, like valvetrain bushings. Monitor for low oil pressure or unusual noise, and follow up on bearing wear in only 1K miles. Neither the thin viscosity nor the trace of fuel is very cautionary.

 

I would take a sample.myself and retest and not rely on someone doing it for me
.too.many variables

That is what I understand from OP
.and monitor it



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High copper, I believe, is usually associated with bearing wear. At the least, you might try a different brand of oil and see if that helps.

 

What ever happened with this? I took a sample and got 15ppm which is slightly higher than average, but I wonder if it was becuase the car wasn’t not driven much in the past year and could’ve been some oil cooler copper leeching.

 

Typo, meant 25ppm.

 

Everyone relax. It's likely the variator bushings. Not a big deal. They are thick copper tubes and if you were to inspect them, you'll see the wear. Problem is to access them, you'll need to remove the variators themselves with a removal tool from Ferrari as well as cam locks.

I would not worry about it, unless you're getting a startup rattle or timing codes. If you don't drive your car much, then you will very likely find some copper in the oil due to these bushings wearing at startup.

It is definitely not bearings. Sorry but the F136 motors in the 430 are bulletproof. You can track it every day to over 100k miles without issue. Other than valve cover gaskets, variator solenoids and maybe chain guides (at over 100K miles), it generally holds up unless you shoot it with an incendiary round.

With that said, there are sometimes issues with oil getting to parts of the top end. Harmless but it can cause some valve tap on the F430, 599s, 612s and that whole era of cars. As a remedy, Ferrari dumps Tutela additive in the oil which is ridiculous and toxic in my opinion. It's effectively a thickener that masks the sounds and just adds more buildup. I literally have CURED relentless top end noise with Seafoam in the oil for about 300 miles. Rather than masking noise, it's a cleaner, so once it's drained, there's no need to add it again. Sound disappears forever.

I mention this because it's possible that the lack of oil causes excessive wear on the variator bushings, leading to the copper content being elevated. Can't prove it, but I know the oil lines that run from the solenoids and the variator accumulator only feed the advancement and retarding of the variator position, not the surfaces (it's used as a hydraulic fluid, not lubricant).

In summary, don't worry about it. If you're in a hot climate, you may want to use a thicker oil (10w60) but it's not always necessary.

 

The longer you look for problems, the higher the odds of finding, and fixing, for no reason, a potential problem, that was never a problem to begin with.

 

You should precede this with "Confucius say:"

 

This is so true. Unfortunately, it takes long term experience with specific model cars to diagnose some things. Someone I know of had a Maserati with the dry sump motor in it and they paid roughly $10K for new variators after being diagnosed as needing them due to a ticking. Problem persisted after the repair. After I heard the sound, I knew right away what the problem was. $6 fix. $10K thrown away. Vanished. Gone. Another time I at a rest stop with another guy with a F430. He bragged about his new F1 pump which he just had replaced for the discount price of $5K. I didn't tell him I could replace it in 20 minutes and the part is $400. He was enjoying the weather too much to ruin his day.

 

What was the issue?

 

Could also run an oil that’s known for cleaning varnish over time. Esters are effective at this. HPL Super Car oil is my choice.

 

Very loud lifter tap. You could literally hear it coming around the corner. Ran 2 cans of Seafoam in the new oil and it disappeared after about 100 miles. Sound never returned. 2 oil changes later, car still quiet.