No Wonder People From the Middle East Hate Americans

LOL LOLO LOL and so TRUE!!!

 

Thank you, funny how politics, age, and money would dictate who would get in on a car site.

 

Tifosi: why don't you use ONE post instead of 6 to say nothing next time, huh? It's easy to do multilpe quotes...

--Dan

 

Tifiosi:

We signed the Geneva accords, Al Qaeda didn't. Sorry a smart guy like you can't seem to figure out the difference. That lack of knowledge is consistent with those espousing the conservative position here. What, who is reasonably conservative, understands, because he's educated, that what we saw violated that convention.

Don't let facts and logic overcome your preset mind, keep your opinion, no matter how eroneous or wrong it may be. I said from the start that this was going to be a mess, the conservatives told me I was wrong. My comment: Welcome to the West Bank appears to have been right on. Make all the noise you want, this stupidity is getting young kids killed. If you are such a supporter, why don't you enlist. My guess is that your chicken, you'd rather let someone else do the work, and you'll take the credit. Been there done that with people just like you, only a different generation.

By the way, quoting Nibbs, who isn't noted for his logic or even temper, doesn't get you too many points (he is a good guy to hang out with through).

Art

 

I also find this out of line. There needs to be a punishment for looting, but taking away a man's (most likely a whole family's) livelihood is too drastic. Especially when you want to build up an economy that will help lead to a faster economic turnaround. While I admire every man and woman who has put their life on the line to protect my freedom, I am unhappy to see how some troops (I am sure it is only a few) are representing our country as a whole. As the title stated, no wonder the Iraqis dislike Americans, they think we are all like those soldiers!! I am sure the only news they see over there is spun by the media, just as our views of them are spun by the liberal US media. Nothing is as it appears (I hope).

 

KDS....
whoa brilliant post!
-jt

 

Brilliant post!
lol
seriously!
-jt

 

That is a rediculous statement Terry. Those civilians were/are simply trying to feed their family by working, probably did not have a politic interest at all, just as you are when you go to work.

In the end you would have to shoot you and I also, as we buy products from all over the world and we do not know where that money goes ... **** some of the weapons used against the Coalition forces are probably US made ... thus should we go and kill a wife of a guy that works at the weapon factory in your home town.

Remember wars are fought by politicians and such like, the solider and average person just ends up doing the dirty work.

Yes I might have got my history very wrong , and yes the British were bastards, but we should not be attempting to exterminate a belief or culture here, just rid the world of the bad people. There have been many stories of soliders from opposite sides bumping into each other and choosing to accept the fact that they are acting out a political game and thus walking away from each other in WW's ... that is how it should be as the goal is to win, not exterminate. Remember WW2 was about removing a madman who was exterminating a culture, a nationality ... if when we fight wars we aim to exterminate the opposition then we are no better than Hitler ... !!!!

Your views indicate that all people with a different belief than YOU are bad people ...

We all need to share the world and then maybe some of this **** would not happen. I'm not saying we should not protect ourselves, but your belief that the only right way is YOUR way is wrong.

In conclusion wars should be fought reluctantly not with glee and a good laugh as you destroy somebodies livelihood or possession. If a solider is enjoying the process then he does not understand the impact and seriousness of what he is undertaking and should not be in that position of power IMO.

Pete
ps: The dropping of the bombs on Japan, may have ended the Japanese involvement in WW2, for which I am glad it ended ... but it was 100% wrong and not the right way of winning IMO. Yes I have done the numbers game many times, but those people did not deserve to die for a politicians stupidity and goals or beliefs. Remember it is the people at the top that make the decisions to go to war NOT the civilians. Do you really think that the people those bombs killed really wanted to be fighting a war ... are you so naive that you believe that every German and Japanese person wanted to fight us in WW2! Ofcourse not, just like not every American and Australian wants to fight this current war ...

Even in a country that votes for political leaders there are usually still 40+ % of the population that doesn't want that person leading and thus doesn't support their goals ...

 

It could happen...
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Dropping the bombs not only resulted in less American lives lost, it resulted in less Japanese lives lost (civilian and military), and was therefor the right thing to do. The only way to do this is too play the numbers game. Japan blatantly refused to surrender before we bombed them. What option did we have other than invasion and bombing them?

 

I've still got the WW2 Newspapers my parents saved. If we invaded, they'd threatened to kill their POWs, arm everyone there, and fight to the death. Estimated casualties at 1,000,000. Given that crazy behavior, the bomb was the only solution. I would have used a more military site, rather than a city, but I wasn't 1 year old then, and had no say.

This isn't the same deal. The Japanese attacked us. Iraqi, despite all the BS, didn't. We are occupying them, and they have a long history of occupation (Brits did it for over 20 years, until they were finally chased out), and they know how to deal with occupiers.

What we aren't looking at, and should be looking at is the Shiite reaction to the occupation. They want us out now, and are threatening resistance. That should be sobering, because with a 1/3 of the country in opposition, if you add the other 1/3, we don't have enough troops, we'll need another 200k, which we don't have, and won't produce.

What a mess, and it doesn't look like its going to get better.

When this blows up big time, I guess the conservatives are going to blame Hillary for making them do it.

Art

 

Pete.......

"but we should not be attempting to exterminate a belief or culture here, just rid the world of the bad people"

-------------------

Well.......then tell me if the utter eradication and subsequent outlawing of the practice of Nazism in most countries is a bad thing then. Put your swastika arm band on now please........

You can't have it both ways.....no matter how badly "your" belief system makes you think that you can. This is mainly where left wing liberal politics are seriously flawed beyond belief. "Good people often let bad things happen" because of their belief systems, which is the practice with most Democratic party voters.

I know that you are in OZ......but my reference to the Democrats was for the consumption of others.

---------------------

ART355......

"Given their crazy behaviour" which is your quote in reference to the Japanese......please define where you locate the "sanity" in the behaviour of the Arab/Muslim world in the last 20 years of attacks on US and Israeli nationals.

Let's see....attempted murder of 50K+ people on 9/11....homicide bombers to numerous to list......recent attacks in Spain.......foiled attacks worldwide......numerous kidnappings and outright murder.......numerous airline bombings......actively seeking with the intent to use nuclear/chem weapons......these people are a pretty reasonable and sane bunch it seems....right up John Kerry's alley I think.

If you want to make the weak and easily defeatable "it's only a few madmen" argument then go for it. There's nothing like a car salesman humbling a $500 an hour CA lawyer.

If you've got me on "ignore" that speaks volumes in my mind......and if you don't, everyone here will wonder why you avoided the question about your apparent selective defininion of sanity relative to an election year.

Have fun..........

 

Well actually we did not eradicate Nazism. It is alive (unfortunately) and their are still people that believe.

Again you cannot eradicate a belief ... impossible. People are not reprogrammable computers, a person grows up with a belief and yes you may make them rethink, but there will always be many more that just hide their personal belief until you cannot hear them.

Again as Art said, Iraq did NOT invade anyone ... the extremists and ONLY the extremists attacted us ... and yet WE invaded their homes and now we see stupid films of a civilian (whose beliefs are not known) livelihood crushed ... brilliant. We have become the attacter ... not the defender of peace. OOPS.

Again I am pro this war, but if I see anymore of this cr@p, I will be changing my mind and start agreeing with the many (already) who believe this is simply the US fighting for their oil. If this is really Bush's game, then give me a riffle and I will shoot him asap. But I actually am naive enough to think this war was started for the right reasons ...

Pete

Pete

 

Statistically you could are correct in regard to nazism, I think there are about 10 of them here in Canada. However, rhetorically my statement carries the argument and I don't think I need to explain why.

People who espouse the oil supply issue are too far gone to debate with and you are not in that category.

 

Pete

>Again you cannot eradicate a belief ... impossible

Who cares? The belief may exist, and damned be to it - You must make that will impotent. Just like we did to Japan's Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere, and their belief in the supremecy of the worshippers of the Shinto Shrine.

Not to mention the belief in Aryan supremecy, or in the Fascist belief that the 20th century Italians were the inheritors of the Roman Empire.


>Again as Art said, Iraq did NOT invade anyone ... the extremists and ONLY the extremists attacted us ...

Excuse me? Are you an admirer of illogical statements?

!.5 million dead when IRAQ invaded Iran.
Untold damage and dead when IRAQ invaded Kuwait.

What, they didn't attack or murder anyone last year?

>Well actually we did not eradicate Nazism. It is alive (unfortunately) and their are still people that believe.

Yeah, about as many as practice cannanbalism...
AS a functioning belief system. it's deader than disco.

 

Kds, I think you have handed both Pete and Art their A$$E$ on a platter. My moneys on the car salesman. All the other two seem to be doing is digging the holes they're in deeper and deeper. In fact, if these two guys were stuck in a hole and you offered them either a rope out, or a shovel, I think they would choose the shovel.

It's great to have a sympathetic, understanding, let's all get along, benefit of the doubt, give them one more try, gee they have the right to their own beliefs, attitude. WHEN it is appropriate. Not when our way of life, or for that matter our very lives, are at stake.

 

Except that last one (which has proven to be false), none of these have anything to do with Iraq. Why can't you guys get that through your heads? The war on terrorism and the war on Iraq are two different things. And unfortunately, the latter is, in addition to being unjust and unnecessary, is distraction from the war on terrorism.

 

If you think that is a distraction... Wait until next year: The Syrian/Lebanese war and the Iranian war. With maybe a helping or two of the North Korean war and the liberate/free Taiwan war.

 

Well it has been fun discussing this.

I think we have drifted off the topic, but I must admitt I am concerned about many of the views expressed here, ie. everybody else on this planet can fnck off, unless they play the American game ... hmmm, doesn't sound fair to me, or ethical.

Anyway back to the tank thing that started this thread. I still believe, quite strongly, that the soliders involved here made a judgement error that we may pay for one day.

In the end I would like to here Bush state actually why they invaded Iraq. I again as I have said many times, are very pleased that we have rid the world of Sadam, but other than that I am not sure why we are there.

Personally I think Bush Junior invaded to finally score the goal that his Dad failed at ... and failed at miserably and we left and did fnck all why thousands of innocents died. Well done Bush Senior!

As for the fight against terrorisim, please explain to me why Iraq has anything to do with this. Sadam maybe ... and I guess we have to squash his followers, but the WoMD are bullsh!t (all though they have cleverly hidden them before ...).

Pete

 

I'm not sure if this point has been made already since I didn't read through all the posts, but just imagine what the Iraqis would've done to some poor Americans caught looting if they were in the same positions as these soldiers?

I'm not sure I even wanna know.

 

The old "two wrongs make a right" huh? Most of us outgrow that around kindergarten. Here's a book you can read to catch up: http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbninquiry.asp?ISBN=0739308106

 

KDS:

I didn't put you on ignore. I had a kart race over the weekend (I crashed) and didn't have time to reply. The issue about this isn't that al qaeda wasn't due for strong retribution, its that all the facts, all the evidence shows that Iraqis didn't have anything to do with it. It's like my beating you up, and you then beating up Ralph to get even with me. They don't connect. That is what is going on here, despite all the spin, all the talk, we attacked Iraq, are now treating their people poorly over an issue that proved to be false, and we are now making up issues to justify that attack. If you've been reading the news, watching tv, you can see that they've had about enough of us, and all segments of their society are attacking us, our citizens, those aligned with us. Wolfowitz got it incredibly wrong, as did the majority of this government. The bill hasn't come due yet, but its currently estimated at 87 - 100 Billion. I bet its twice that.

Don't take my word for this. Just wait: come 6/30 if we hand over government to then, we'll see a civil war, pitting the Shia against the Sunis against the Kurds. If by some change the Kurds prevail, watch Turkey, Syria, etc attack their area. It's going to be a terrible mess, and if I had to bet, if Iraq stays together, someone just like Saddam will replace him. There'll be more spin about how good that is, etc. About 1, 2 years from then, we'll see Iran & Iraq jack up the price of oil to a new high, over the $40/barrel we're now looking at. Confusing Iraq with the war on terrorism is either stupid or disengenous, but in either event a disaster for the USA.

All done in the name of the good old USA, and done with our enlisted forces from the lower classes, while those in the upper classes, without any sacrafice (in fact we got a tax cut) cheer them on.

You know, I watched this little game played in the 60s. It's easy to see the outlines of the repeating story, even if the words are a little different. We now use the term "Putting an Iraqi face..." Then it was Vietnamization. Same thing, see if our puppets can handle the opposition. Couldn't then, probabaly can't now.

I was right before the war: no WMDs and I'm right now. Time will tell. Problem is that young men and women, with a great future in front of them are dying for nothing.

Art

 

I just went back and looked at my post early 4/3. Looks like I predicted the Shia resistance. kds, you sure got it right: NOT

Art

 

I thought this might interest those who thought this behavior was ok:


Art:

Just got off the phone with Warner’s staff guy. (Senator from Virginia)

Sent him the link, and as he opened it, the name of a diety was invoked.

They had not seen the video.

Follow up is almost certain to be made quickly.



I also sent it to Carl Levin. Although I don’t think much of Mr. Levin (not important – live in Oho), I have served on a couple of committees engaged with his office regarding automotive issues. From this, I know he is a thoughtful person, not afraid to act. Although it would not serve my favorite candidate for president, in this season, Carl Levin is even likely to act. From this you may gather that for me, in this regard, “favorite candidate for president” ranks BELOW “favorite candidate for tank commander”. The video gains this unknown butt buster a solid “no” vote.



I have also forwarded the link to M.D. (Mike) Thompson, former curator of the Land Warfare Museum of the United States Army. M.D. is a retired civil serevant with no fear of anybody for any reason. He is also angered by the video as it portrays a court martial offense in progress. Let you know what Mike says about the eventual outcome of the event portrayed.



T

The problem is fixed, and so is the ******* who destroyed that poor man's life.

Art

 

Well done Art.

Lets hope in the future that they can train some discipline into the wonderful American Army.

And like you I am seriously worried about the fall out of this war. I was very much pro this war, but this was because I was sold a pack of lies. The only good thing in the end was getting rid of Saddam ... but who put him there in the first place. Thus like you I expect stability in that country to not last long, and the Coalition running out of money and pulling out (when ever) will not help.

That country needs us to stay around for many, many years to allow FREE people to get the place moving and strong so these dictators cannot get power.

Pete