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Much more oil data (a lot more)

Discussion in 'Technical Q&A' started by AEHaas, Apr 12, 2004.

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  1. AEHaas

    AEHaas Formula 3

    May 9, 2003
    1,465
    Osprey, Florida
    Full Name:
    Ali E. Haas
    #1 AEHaas, Apr 12, 2004
    I have uploaded the most recent oil data. There are many additions. Most notable is that there are new 0W-X and 5W-X motor oils. I have collected some high temperature (150 C, 302 F) viscosities. Note that the difference in viscosity is only 1 to 2 at this temperature. This goes back to what I have been trying to get across - that most oils are about the same viscosity at high temperature but vary significantly at temperatures below 40 C, 104 F, where most engine damage occurs. My personal recommendations will follow.

    Some general observations: Redline regular multi-viscosity motor oils (all are synthetic) are a little thick at start up but thin out the least at higher temperatures and have higher flash points. For the highest temperature racing situations I like these numbers.

    Mobil 1 motor oils seem least honey-like than all others at start up. They are average or a little thinner at the highest of temperatures. This might be the best combination for around town as long as appropriate pressures are maintained (but not exceeded).

    Shell Helix Ultra (the SJ rated stuff at least) was the clearest oil I have ever seen. In the past this had a positive meaning. I always liked Shell.

    Valvoline SynPower as well as Redline oils have higher flash points. This may be good for racing. In general I used to prefer Castrol over Valvoline but now I like Valvoline better overall.

    Mobil 1 is likely the best oil at start up, period ( . ) It may well be the single best oil now. ‘Just my opinion. It is also one of the least expensive and most available synthetic motor oils. I do think that all oils are almost as good as each other but for the viscosity differences. This does count. I am comparing synthetic to synthetic and dino to dino in this statement.

    Today's SL rated oils are far far better than previous oils in every way they are tested. There is less wear, less friction, better moisture handling, less foaming, better cleaning, less corrosion and they are longer lasting with less breakdown. There are around a hundred criteria tested. Your owners manual was based on the oils available at that time. What you should use today may be different than what is stated in that old book.

    aehaas
    Enjoy:
     
  2. f355spider

    f355spider F1 World Champ
    Owner Rossa Subscribed

    May 29, 2001
    18,055
    USA
    #2 f355spider, Apr 12, 2004
    Ali,
    Thanks for your persistance at keeping this information up to date, and including your general comments!!! Excellent information.

    BTW, as the days have gotten warmer out. I HAVE noticed a difference in oil pressure (now using 5w-30)...it is a bit lower (for the better) and now I rarely hit over 90 psi, when running to redline. The max is just a hair above 85 psi, and seems to hang right around there most of the time, except at idle of course. Before with 15w-50 or even 5w-40 it was always above 85 psi and when rev'd up, hitting the pop off pressure limit, set at around 95 psi.

    Dave
     
  3. Ricambi America

    Ricambi America F1 World Champ
    Sponsor Owner

    Dec 7, 2003
    16,476
    Winston Salem, NC
    #3 Ricambi America, Apr 12, 2004
    Ali -

    Fantastic data, and great analysis too! I'm pleased to see that Mobil 1 remains a top-choice oil, and confirms that we don't have to spend huge bucks (like Shell Helix) to get an extremely good product. It's easy to find, easy to afford. Those two attributes are too rare in the Ferrari world.

    Thanks for educating everyone on F-Chat !

    -Daniel
     
  4. bobafett

    bobafett F1 Veteran

    Sep 28, 2002
    9,193
    #4 bobafett, Apr 13, 2004
    I think I'll try the mobil 0w-40 on the maranello next time...thanks for the data!

    --Dan
     
  5. Tifoso1

    Tifoso1 F1 Rookie

    Nov 18, 2003
    2,606
    Pacific NW
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    Anthony C.
    #5 Tifoso1, Apr 13, 2004
    Great post as always, and thank you.

    I have noticed that the Agip oils has a flash point of 400+ when most others are around 200+ or so?? Does that also translate to less oil breakdown and less foaming at high temperture?
     
  6. AEHaas

    AEHaas Formula 3

    May 9, 2003
    1,465
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    Ali E. Haas
    #6 AEHaas, Apr 13, 2004
    They listed it in F. I need to convert all numbers to C.

    aehaas

    PS - The page will be re done when I add Royal Purple data to that last page in a few days.
     
  7. Tifoso1

    Tifoso1 F1 Rookie

    Nov 18, 2003
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    Anthony C.
    #7 Tifoso1, Apr 13, 2004
    My bad. I should have looked a little closer, rookie mistakes. I have actually did the conversion as we speak. It is about the same as all others oils.
     
  8. Wasco

    Wasco Formula Junior

    Dec 9, 2003
    486
    Salem
    Full Name:
    Randy
    #8 Wasco, Apr 13, 2004
    Mobil One is 4 bucks a quart here. At GI Joes.

    What are you guys paying for it, and where?

    I am getting lower pressures too Dave, but it has me worried. The last time I drove it was showing only 45 lbs at 6k. I wonder with 70 k on the clock if the rings are letting a little too much gas by and diluting the oil as I only get these low readings after 3 or 4 hundred miles on the oil and at 210 oil temp. Probly not if I had that much blow by I would see it other places.

    I guess I will take it to RTGT for some inspection.
    Just wondering if my oil is losing its viscus properties for some reason.

    my 308 also burns a little oil at times. I think it is valve guides not rings. I hope! I feel like just turning up the relief valve but dont suspect that will help!
     
  9. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    9,742
    #9 Mitch Alsup, Apr 13, 2004
    45 PSI is a little low for 6K it should be more like at least 60 PSI.

    Before getting into the engine, look at the transparency of the oil after the 3-4 hundred miles. If it is no longer transparent, change the oil again. It is likely that a new batch oil oil has enough detergents to pick up a lot/most of the crud that had sellted out of the previous batch. The microscopic particles that are picked up will reduce the oil viscocity and thereby reduce the oil pressure.

    Failing this, I would start by suspecting the oil pump and/or the spring that moderates high pressure. A worn oil pump lacks the pressure and volume to keep the oil pressure where it needs to be. After that, I would suspect the main bearings and the con-rod bearings rather than the rings. As these wear, the amount of oil that can pass (at constant pressure) increases dramatically.

    To prevent oil burning, choose an oil that has a high flashpoint.
     
  10. AEHaas

    AEHaas Formula 3

    May 9, 2003
    1,465
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    Ali E. Haas
    #10 AEHaas, Apr 13, 2004
    What oil are you using? IF you are truly getting 45 PSI at 6,000 RPM then you need a much thicker oil but one has to wonder why the pressure is that low to begin with. Something must be wrong. An inspection is needed but again this assumes the 45 PSI is a true pressure.

    Note that at 150 C the difference in viscosity between a 30 wt and a 50 wt oil is not that much.

    aehaas
     
  11. 4re gt4

    4re gt4 Formula 3

    Apr 23, 2002
    2,279
    Roseburg, OR
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    Hans E. Hansen
    #11 4re gt4, Apr 13, 2004
    Wasco: Don't go into panic mode just yet. Changing the oil pressure sender on these older cars can have a dramatic effect. My idle pressure went from 0 to 20-30. Sort of like an engine overhaul in a little 3"X3" box. <jk>
     
  12. Spasso

    Spasso F1 World Champ

    Feb 16, 2003
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    Han Solo
    #12 Spasso, Apr 13, 2004
    Hey Randy,
    I like your 914 and all but when are you going to post a picture of your 308 in your profile?
     
  13. AEHaas

    AEHaas Formula 3

    May 9, 2003
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    Ali E. Haas
    #13 AEHaas, Apr 13, 2004
    Here is the Royal Purple data:
     
  14. Wasco

    Wasco Formula Junior

    Dec 9, 2003
    486
    Salem
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    Randy
    #14 Wasco, Apr 13, 2004
    I bet some are wondering if she exists.

    I just got a new digital camera and will put something up soon!
     
  15. Wasco

    Wasco Formula Junior

    Dec 9, 2003
    486
    Salem
    Full Name:
    Randy
    #15 Wasco, Apr 13, 2004
    I did just change my sender! I was getting even worse readings before. I think my motor is really lose and the pump is not able to pump the volume or the pressure valve needs adjusting. The oil has remained clear too! I thought maybe for a while it was watered down with gas.

    I just need to do some more trial and error fixes. Only a couple more on my part before she goes to the shop though!
     
  16. Wasco

    Wasco Formula Junior

    Dec 9, 2003
    486
    Salem
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    Randy
    #16 Wasco, Apr 13, 2004
    I threw one up of her watching the game!
     
  17. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Eight Time F1 World Champ
    BANNED Rossa Subscribed

    Apr 28, 2003
    85,600
    Texas!
    #17 Texas Forever, Apr 13, 2004
    AEHaas, can I ask a real dumb question? How hard is it to change the oil in a Maranello? I haven't even looked, but I'm assuming that it is a dry sump, yes? Are there any tricks to draining? How many quarts does it take? Does it take one or two filters. Yeah, yeah, a dumb question, but I really haven't even had the time to eyeball the car yet.

    Thx, Dale



     
  18. Wasco

    Wasco Formula Junior

    Dec 9, 2003
    486
    Salem
    Full Name:
    Randy
    #18 Wasco, Apr 13, 2004
    As you can see my car has great taste when it comes to watching cars on TV!
     
  19. Wasco

    Wasco Formula Junior

    Dec 9, 2003
    486
    Salem
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    Randy
    #19 Wasco, Apr 13, 2004
    AEHaas,

    Sorry for HiJakking your thread! I have personally benefitted from your posts on oil viscosity.

    DrTax,

    I read from the manual on the owners site that it recommends 2.65 Gallons of Shell Helix Ultra 5 W 40. And I think all dry 12s have 2 filters but I would wait to hear from a Maranello owner.
     
  20. robertgarven

    robertgarven F1 Veteran
    Owner

    Feb 24, 2002
    5,322
    Ventura, California
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    Robert Garven
    #20 robertgarven, Apr 14, 2004
    maybe i am to stupid but i am using castrol 20-50 and cant see that much difference in the mobil one 15-50. What am i missing and why should I change???
     
  21. AEHaas

    AEHaas Formula 3

    May 9, 2003
    1,465
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    Ali E. Haas
    #21 AEHaas, Apr 14, 2004
    Robert, do a search for my previous posts. They will explain how to select an oil for your application. Read them all. I will soon post actual labels depending on your pressure needs but first you must find out what your needs are (the top number).

    Dr. Tax, once the car is up it takes 15 minutes to change the oil. It is easier than many "regular" cars. Yes, two filters and it takes 12 to 15 qts. depending on whether you open the large diameter hoses and empty them too. I always do that.

    aehaas
     
  22. AEHaas

    AEHaas Formula 3

    May 9, 2003
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    Ali E. Haas
    #22 AEHaas, Apr 14, 2004
    My opinion on the motor oils is based on viscosities. By this I mean less honey like at start up temperatures and appropriate for the required viscosity at operating temperature. I broke it down to two classes, 1-Fully Synthetic and 2-Mineral (dino) oils and blends of dino and synthetic. The asterisk is my preferred from each group of very similar products. Remember, all oils are too thick at start up. There is no such thing as an oil that is too thin below 100F. The thinnest motor oil made is still too thick at start up temperatures.


    . Synthetic Class:

    60 wt:
    Redline straight 60 wt racing oil (racing only, acts as a SAE 20W-60 oil)
    Valvoline SynPower 20W-50*

    50 wt:
    Castrol Syntec 5W-50
    Shell Helix Ultra 15W-50
    Penn Synthetic 5W-50*

    40 wt:
    Mobil 1, 0W-40*
    Shell Helix Ultra 5W-50

    30 wt:
    Mobil 1, 0W-30*
    Penn Synthetic 5W-30

    20 wt:
    Mobil 1, 0W-20*
    Valvoline SynPower 5W-20



    . Non-Synthetic and synthetic blends:

    60 wt:
    Castrol Syntec Blend 20W-50

    50 wt:
    None recommended - all relatively too thick at start up.

    40 wt:
    Penn regular Multigrade 10W-40
    Valvoline Durablend 10W-40*

    30 wt:
    Penn regular Multigrade 5W-30*
    Valvoline Durablend 5W-30

    20 wt:
    Penn regular Multigrade 5W-20*
    Valvoline Durablend 5W-20

    I personally use Mobil 1, 0W-20 in the 575 Maranello and for the first oil change I drained the Murcielago’s 5W-40 Agip and replaced it with 0W-30 Mobil 1. The engine became much quieter. A valve tappet noise disappeared. I may try the 0W-20 next. For all my other cars I use the regular Pennzoil Multigrade 5W-20.

    aehaas
     
  23. Texas Forever

    Texas Forever Eight Time F1 World Champ
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    Apr 28, 2003
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    Texas!
    #23 Texas Forever, Apr 14, 2004
    Do you have any preference for filters? I need to look at the car and eyeball this stuff. From what I recall, the manual doesn't say anything about how to do oil changes.

    Thx, DrTax
     
  24. Dave

    Dave F1 Rookie

    Apr 15, 2001
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    David Jones
    #24 Dave, Apr 14, 2004
    Just thought I'd say thanks Ali.
    It sure is a pleasure to find real useable data in a world of seat of your pants posts. :)
     
  25. AEHaas

    AEHaas Formula 3

    May 9, 2003
    1,465
    Osprey, Florida
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    Ali E. Haas
    #25 AEHaas, Apr 14, 2004
    I think the manual does state how to change the oil, basically the separate sump plug and the engine pan plug, then refill.

    aehaas
     
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