Hill Says Senna to blame at Imola !!!

My point was cold tires caused the crash and he was a race car driver. To blame him for going too fast is nutty. Race = fast. As for every wreck being driver error, I was making a point. I don't think driver error was to blame in this case. I'm not sure if the phrase "cold tires" was mentioned much back then, as it is today. Hill can lick me as well as Mika Hakkinen. These two are the latest X-racers to want some time in the spot light. Nothing more. They have nothing new to say and no advice to offer. So WTF are they doing? Other than causing sh*t.

 

You didn't happen to watch the replay of the '94 imola GP did you? I don't think so, because if you had, you'd have seen Senna pull up to the saftey car numerous times gesturing for him to speed up... NOW! He knew the tires were getting cold, and he knew that meant trouble. In their retrospective commentary, they announcers mentioned that the driver of the saftey car ran out of brakes on the 2nd lap of the caution period... there was no way he was keeping those cars behind him up to speed.
Senna's death has been attributed to a lot of factors; i.e., illegal ride height leading to the car bottoming out, and losing aero; cold tires; faulty steering column, which was made thinner togive Senna more "leg room"; power steering failure; etc.

This rehashing of the trial is utter nonsense, since under the same provision that gives the SanMarino authorities the right to try the team, there is a subsection that demands the raceweekend be stopped! should a fatality occur; by their own laws, the GP should have been halted after Ratzenbergs death. Period. Therefore, if the Italian's want someone to hang, they had better find the promotor/official that allowed the race to go on, rather than to keep rehashing this! They're the ones to blame!

Mr. Parker, frankly, I don't know how much (if any) racing/tracking experience you have, nor do I know what your degree of enthusiasim is for racing at large, but your comments regarding Senna are entirely unfounded. He was an icon, and will remain so. Hill, on the other hand, is a nammbypamby sissy boy. Always was, and remains so to this day.

 

Why?

 

I watched the accident, a very sad day.

None of you has mentioned that regardless of reason for the actual crash, he was killed by a errant piece of the front suspension, which in a total fluke, penetrated the protection of his helment.

Just an extremely unlucky happenstance, on an extremely unlucky weekend.

As Mario said after his flight recently, "I got the feeling someone was trying to tell me I'd been getting away with this for a long, long time."

These guys know what goes with the job, every time they pull the helment on.....

No comment......... on Damon Hill's comment..........Hope he made wise investments.

 

As the son of Graham and the last British F1 champ...he will be near royalty for life in the UK. Amongst other things...he currently runs P1 international...a great idea that I always thought would do well in the US aside from the liability issues.

- JMG

http://www.p1international.com/html/02AboutP1.html

 

Hubert well put. Just because I like Senna does not mean I don't like Schumacher. I think he is the greatest driver of his generation and he would have had great numbers regardless. I just feel had Ayrton not been killed and the Caliber of the Williams Renault from Mid 94 through the end of 97, I think Ayrton would have won 7 Championships, 70+ Wins, and 100 Poles. I think Michael would not have the Stats he has today.

By the way Ayrton wanted to drive his last season for Ferrari.

 

There's alot of things that would do well in the US except for liability issues!!!

I had a franchise proposal sent over by Gianpierro Moretti for MoKart, but just couldn't work my enthusiasm up to deal with mommy over little Timmy's broken arm!!!

No harm meant towards Damon, he hasn't had it easy after all, and drove his heart out, when he had to.

It just seems kinda spooky that's all, maybe because I was reading my way through Senna's gf's book recently. There was a good R&T article on his level of concentration that was remarkable.

 

FlatOutRacing,

I am surprised you do not think cold tyres caused this accident, and the fact that Senna was brilliant at the beginning of any race and thus was pushing extremely hard to break away from MS. I remember vividly the sparks coming from the bottom of Sennas car in that part of the track and my father and I talking about how hard Senna was pushing. Accidents happen, Sennas car bottomed and he lost control. In the end just like Clark, Senna was human too and had just as many spins as any talented racing driver constantly pushing the limit. Remember the race before he spun out too.

Lets analyse:

- Hill was in exactly the same car, thus he better than anybody else can attribute the effect cold tyres had on that car. Remember cold tyres lowers the ride height too.

- Senna had not scored any points that sesson yet, and MS was looking very, very fast. Thus it is natural for a racing driver of Sennas talent to be pushing very hard.

- We all saw Senna give the safety car a hard time ... thus Senna was not happy about the pace. ALL RACE CARS tyres go cold if the pace is too slow, even my club car used to suffer. The lack of grip is amazing on cold tyres.

- If the steering column broke while Senna was on the track the computer would have data recording Senna moving the steering wheel. In this situation anybody, and especially somebody as talented as Senna, would have been moving the steering wheel all over the place trying to work out what the deal was. You do not just sit there and go 'Oh steering has broken' ... you have to work that out, thus you move the steering wheel and note the car is not changing direction.
Also the car did not just go straight off, it veered to the right, just like a car that bottomed and lost the rear and then TOO much correction was applied, etc. The Williams that year was not balanced until much, much later in the season and thus it was a twitchy beast, and thus tragically even Senna could not control it at that speed on a bumpy track with cold, low grip tyres.

The very sad part of this is that it happened on a great track, which has since lost its soul and now sucks. The other sad thing is it happened in Italy where the legal system is worse than America ... and this will just never end.

In the end guys, Jim Clark dies due to a racing accident, probably caused by a mistake on a very wet track ... and Senna dies due to a racing accident trying to tame a wild unbalanced Williams which was no where near as good as last years car, and we all expected Senna to easily win the championship. Imagine the pressure he was under, the all conquering car and NO points going into the third (or fourth race?). Unfortunately it was not to be, and Williams fncked up the car and Senna had to use all his skill to make it look competitive. The only thing Williams did wrong was making a car that was not competitive ... should we sue for that?

Pete

 

Pete, your absolutely right about this stupid legal case. Senna knew better than anybody that he could die racing and accepted. The whole matter is a joke, there is a good book about it called "The Life of Senna".

I remember reading a book about Clark's accident at Hockenheim and what they thought happened was a deflating tire. Poor Clark he was in 11th place at a Formula 2 event and lost his life. I doubt Clark made an error but you never know.

The only reason I don't think in my opinion it was necessarily the tires was the 6th lap from Senna was really quick. I think the tires probably were up to temperature but the car was bottoming on its titanium skid plates. After his accident, Patrick Head went over to Hill's car and turned off the Power Steering. In the pits when Senna crashed, Head was yelling about the Power Steering as at the time it was in its infancy stage.

Either way we lost a great driver and a great battle that would have developed with Schumacher.

 

Absolutely .. RIP Senna!

Pete

 

Every wreck is human error. Read my post above. Every wreck is not human error.

Jon

 

Pete,

I am undecided over what was the direct cause of the accident. I haven't rules out the cold tires but I also haven't ruled out the steering issue. People automatically assume that the if the steering had failed it would be a massive failure and noticeable in the cockpit but the possibility exists that something minor happened with the steering shaft that was only enough to effect the steering in a minor way, but enough so that Senna lost control.

I am no engineer and I certainly haven't had the time to read the thousands of book and magazine articles and trial notes that have been published with different theories.

You're analysis of the situation is spot on but why would Hill talk about it now, nearly 10 years later and a week or so after the trial is being re-opnened. Maybe that is what Hill really thinks but why now, doesn't it look just a little suspicious?

Like Andreas I can't come to a conclusion either way.

The other thing has always disturbed me was that Williams had the data recorders removed and claimed that the data card was damaged, but the person who removed them, Fabrizio Nosco, stated they were only scratched and not damaged. The Italian authorities only got the telemtry a month later from I believe Williams.

Also Alboreto's testamony was interesting even though he wasn't racing at the time:

"At a previous court hearing on March 17 1997 Alboreto had said, after viewing a VHS video of the crash, that he felt mechanical failure was the cause of Senna's failure to negotiate the Tamburello curve. He told reporters: "I hope this trial helps us understand what happened to Senna, because it still isn't clear."

Today in court Alboreto again told magistrate Antonio Costanzo "You don't go off on that bend (Tamburello) unless there is a mechanical failure."

He also stated that on circuits like Imola the stresses and strains subjected on the steering column would cause flexing -- "in the order of two or three millimetres."



Like someone else said it's really pointless and a mute point to even worry about what caused it.

My whole point is wondering why now, 10 years later Hill needs to suddenly talk about it.

Regards,

Jon

 

I agree with you, and i also feel that in moral sense, Senna was a better person.
I am still shocked that Schumi raced a race the day after his mother died...no respect...

Senna was more than a race car driver and this is why we mourn his death!
I know many people that met Senna and said that he was a very very warm loving person.

I have met Schumi about 2 years ago in Palm Beach at the cavallino festivities and i found him to be arrogant and useless!

-jt

 

You're not exactly right...also in the cockpit were a couple of on board cameras and telemetry that measured every single input, including steering effort.

 

Yes very disturbing.

Hmmm, interesting and I can see why he says that ... just a slight curve.

Again interesting. Maybe he is getting sick and tired of going over it.

IMO ALL car racing should be stopped in Italy until they can understand that accidents happen and move on ... or get a decent court system. Remember when Jim Clark could not even go to Italy otherwise he would have been arrested for Von Trips (?) death.

I would not race there ...

Pete

 

I heard the same thing as 62 250 GTO....cold tires meaning dropped in pressure and lowering the ride height. Bumpy track cause the car to bottom out, meaning suddne lose of downforce...resulting in a crash.

It's unfortunated incident, when all the wrong things happened at the same time.

 

Mmmmm... American legal system is a good legal system? ;-)

 

I agree on onething ALL Racing should cease in Italy due to cases like this. From what I know through the Senna family, the card from the black box on the Williams computer WAS NOT Damaged. They did hold back evidence, it was not a steering rack failure, it had to due to the Power Steering system. If it had been just tires Senna would not have posted the time on the previous lap. Hill is full of S$it.

 

One last thing about Senna, as great as a driver he was, he was a better human being. If anyone here saw what he did when Martin Donnely crashed or Zanardi can atest to Senna's spirt. The best measure of him with those close to racing came from Dr. Sid Watkins, as how much Ayrton cared about the racers around him. What he did through his foundation after his death for the Children of Brasil is his true Measure as a Man.

 

My guess is Hill spoke out now because the case has been re-opened. I am a new F1 fan so I did not know many of the details reviewed here about the crash. Just a newbie observation, but based on the participants' actions after the crash, the power steering sounds like a resonable suspect. How tough it must be for MS and RB and all the rest to go through that corner this weekend, and NOT LIFT. BTW, this is a great forum for a lurker.

 

I wish the Italian government would let this issue rest. Formula 1 racing is, by nature, a dangerous sport. Given. Add to that its position as the premier level of motorsport, known for pushing the envelope of technology. If Ayrton Senna's crash had resulted in the death of track workers or spectators, I would understand more the need to assign blame for the wreck. But as things happened, they have no business legislating the engineering minutae of auto racing, especially after the fact (expos facto?). The great nation of Italy needs to decide if it is either going to embrace and allow motorsports in its country, or like Switzerland, ban it all together. And even if, at some point, it is determined that there was engineering negligence, that would seem to me like an issue to be settled between Williams and the estate of Ayrton Senna.

 

I'm not sure I agree. Explain.

Also, re-reading the article, Hill was more or less correct in what he said. In a nutshell he feels that it was a racing incident, nothing more. Only that he says it in his usual wussified manner that makes him feel better about himself, since he knows deep down that he was a shell of the racer that Senna was.

 

Hill is a clown and could never be half the driver as Senna or Schumacher.

 

Track has changed and this corner no longer exists ... unfortunately as track sucks now.

Pete