Comments on Imola F1 Race

There seems to be a lot of disagreement over JPM's attempted pass. After looking at the replay a dozen times or so it appears that while Michael had the inside corner and the apex, JPM was at one point ahead of the Ferrari on the outside. The on board camera from MS's car seems to indicate that JPM's car started to wash wide and possibly got loose and started to understeer.

Both drivers are required to give each other "racing" room. Those of you that say MS is on the inside line (preferrred line) and therefore it's his corner are incorrect. Entering the apex it appeared that both cars were either side by side or possibly JPM was ahead (that's what MS's in car camera shows for a brief second).

Some of you have also stated that MS has the right to go all the way outside to trackout even if JPM is occupying this space or headed that way. That is also incorrect. Michael has that right only if he is clearly ahead of JPM at the Apex and has "closed the door."

In this particular instance I think that JPM initially outbraked MS on the outside and for a brief moment before both drivers turned in was ahead. But the incorrect line and carryong too much momentum meant the front end of his car washed out and he lost grip. At this stage MS was able to get through the corner quicker and because he was ahead of JPM (by maybe less than 1/3 of a car length) he had a right to take the car all the way out to trackout.

In this case it was a very close judgement call, but had JPM been able to stay side by side, then the statement some of you have made that MS has a right to that corner because he has the correct line is incorrect.

Because you are taking the preferred line or the correct line through a corner doesn't preclude a faster car taking a different line and being given racing room.

In Ralph's case both today and at Bahrian (talking about the two Renaults) he didn't give racing room because he was sure the other car would back off. In Sato's case he couldn't back off and had no where to go, in todays instance Ralph did the same but the Renault driver (can't remember if it was Trulli or Fernando) wasn't going to back off.

The key term in all these instances is that no one has an absolute right ot a corner when both cars are failry close (side by side). In most forms of open wheel and sports car racing the concept of "racing room" is applied equally to both drivers.

As far as JPM's whinning............well he's been doing that since before he entered F1. Remember all his bold statements about beating MS when he was still at Ganassi?

Regards,

Jon P. Kofod
www.flatoutracing.net

 

That may be true but racers don't think that way. There is no way JPM is thinking "...well I know MS is quicker so I shouldn't attempt the pass with 62 laps to go....." In fact had JPM gotten by he may have held MS off until the first pit stop. Look at Ralph, he held Reuben's up for most of the first stint.

Imola is not an easy track to make clean passes. Look at Monoco a few years ago when Bernoldi held up DC for half the race.

regards,

Jon

 

sorry jon, but i'll take martin brundle's word for it, given that he has actually raced at that track and with ms - ms had the line, jpm made a mistake.

jpm's performance in the press conference confirmed that he is currently not mentally fit to be a champion. and i guess he conveniently forgot that until ms took his foot off the pedal in lap 55 or so, that he was some 40 seconds behind ms.....

as for those who like to moan about ferrari dominance, rb showed what the ferrari is capable of in when somebody other than ms is driving. yes he did have some bad luck with trulli in front etc, but nevertheless i think it is useful to see what ms brings to the party.....

all hail button ! in a few years when the racing is left to button, alonso, kimi, webber and maybe jpm (ig he hasn't whined his way out of any drive), should be good.

 

Not sure Brundle did much of any racing while in F1

Ross my point was that had both drivers been side by side through the turn the notion that one driver had a right-of-way because he took the preferred line doesn't apply. In this case, as you noted, JPM blew that chance by making a mistake that denied him the opportunity to drive through the corner side by side and require MS to give racing room.

Perfect example was MS pushing Kimi wide at Magny Cours when Kimi spun on oil. Crybaby Ronny D. got all upset and said MS pushed Kimi off the track and bullied him but the fact remains that Kimi made a mistake and MS had the right of way to take his car all the way to track out.

Martin's a nice guy and at one point was a talented driver (beat Senna on occasion in F3) but maybe he would have won a GP if he understood a little bit more about passing. In 158 races he never won a race, never sat on pole, never had a fastest lap and averaged less than 1 point per race.

"You can pass anywhere in the world if you're rude enough and determined enough." Martin Brundle British GP 1997

regards,

Jon

 

JM
" Michael had a poor start" - Incorrect
Jenson had a quick car {he made it on pole} he had less fuel, and he had a clean and short line to the first turn. So he [JB] inched away towards the first turn.

"He {MS} was slow out of the first chicane" - Incorrect
It's a chicane, everyone is slow leaving one.

"{In turn 3} I went to pass him and he closed the door on me and I had to back off then he did the same out of the next corner and he closed the door so I went for the inside and I'm coming out beside him and the next thing I see he's coming straight at me, hits me and puts me in the grass. It's very dissapointing to see racing like that, but I'll be surprised if he gets away with it".

"I [JM] went for the inside" - Montoya was on the outside

"I'm coming out beside him" - He was on the grass and losing speed, "beside"
would mean nothing even if he was right along side.

"and the next thing I see he's coming straight at me" - The next thing he sees??? What about him passing where leaders don't even pass lapped cars? Or the fact he had too much speed and was losing controll?

"hits me" - Lie

"and puts me in the grass" - No contact = he put himself in the grass by putting himself in that position on cold tyres.

"It's very dissapointing to see racing like that" - Unless he does it to his team mate 2 seconds later??? Get one rule book and stay with it Juan.

"but I'll be surprised if he gets away with it" - It's not under investigation. So good luck.

Interviewer
"Was there any damage to your car? You say there was contact."

JM
"No, no, no he just hit me hard enough to put me in the grass... I thought I could have had him there" - No damage? You were in a collision and there was no damage? Bull Poop. You thought you would have him there? How? Are you the real speed racer?

Then JM on the Ralf/uphill/dance
JM

"I came into the track, I saw him, I had to close the door, close the door and I had enough momentum just to keep in front of him" - You came on to the track, like you were off then came on and were going slower than anyone behind you??? Had to close the door??? For Ralf's safty or to block and keep your position??? Enough momentum??? He was going faster and you ran him out of room!

So most of what Juan said in the post race was either wrong or a lie. In my view, not a good way to make a case.

And as for line. MS entered the turn with the position and Juan made an attempt on cold tires, on the outside of a turn in a corner where passes aren't attempted and off the clean line. Strike one two three and four there was no pass was made and the laws of physics have spoken.

 

Fact is that it was a CHICANE that JPM was trying to pass MS. A place that can barely allow one car through let along two. MS was in the lead and had the race line into or out of the chicane and that pretty much says it all. Such moves should have never been attempted especially at the start of the race when all the cars are bunched up on cold tyres. That is one move that can easily result in a massive crash and put all the drivers behind them at risk. It was a dumb-ass, wishful thinking move made by JPM. It is one of those gutsy/idiotic moves that one can try, but if you don't make it, you have no reason to cry about it. To be sitting there next to MS and to be making comments such as JPM did post-race just made JPM looked even more foolis and he is not doing the sport any favorite by doing so.

With your making such bold comments about Martin Brundle, if I may ask, what type if racing background do you actually have and what championship have you won? I suppose you were a rising F1 driver and won at Le Man two or three times, so you can be making such judgement on a ex-F1 driver.

 

I jus' know I laughed so hard watching that post race that the gf wanted to know why! That was just hilarious.

You could see at the end of the race MS congrats to JB as they exited the cars. Helment slapping and hugs. Then, JPM SULKING on the podium. Good grief! What a baby!

Then he slams MS in the press conference, and when the moderator went back to MS for final thoughts the door was WIDE OPEN for MS to back slap him. Instead he was SO COOL with his remarks, about winning in Italy, how great the fans were...... it was like JPMs gums flapping was just the wind blowing!

Classic, truly classic!

 

Anthony,

First off Tosa isn't a chicane, it's a decreasing radius corner. Not sure what part of the first lap you are referring to. Second, read the FIA regulations for track dimensions. There is no corner, chicane, or any other section of track on a FIA approved F1 venue that cannot accomodate two race cars going through said section side by side. I am not aware of any section of any track on the F1 calendar where barely one car can get through.

I hold an SCCA dual National/Pro license, a SCCA Regional license, a Grand Am license, and a National Auto Sport Association License. I have raced everything from 100 hp Spec Racers, open wheel formula cars, 400 hp GT cars, and currently a touring car.

No I don't have F1 experience and I am not going to be appearing at a CART race anytime soon (though given the current path CART is taking I might get a chance soon). I just race for fun and don't have any world class talent.

Championship, although amateur and not F1, is in progress this season.

No, I am sure Martin Brundle, could whip my butt but that's not my point. Martin was never considered an agressive racer in F1. While he is tons more qualified than I am to comment on F1, he may have a different view on what constitutes a clear and safe pass when compared to someone else's view.

Say someone like Mansell, Senna, Piquet and even someone whom I dislike, JV.

Some drivers like JPM (who I don't like either), Kimi, MS and a few others will attempt to make an agressive pass that others would never try.

Just look at RB and RS. They have to have a clean opportunity with the door wide open to attempt a pass.

Look at Damon Hill ! The door had to be so wide open you could to drive a truck though the opening.

As for my qualifications, they don't mesure up to Mr. Brundell but I think I have a bit more qualification than most of the arm chair racers on this site!

Also keep in mind that Brundell doesn't like JPM very much. This harks back to Montoya's first season, when he played a joke on Brundell, who was commenting for BBC and constantly irritating Juan trying to get an interview on the starting grid (remember how JPM gave Derek Daly that pissed off look at the Indy GP and refused to talk with him)? Everyone knew that Juan would not grant interviews once on the grid, but he motioned to Brundell to come over to him (this was when JPM got his first pole). Brundell was beaming with delight that he has snagged a grid interview with JPM. Brundell's first question was about the pole position and JPM answered him in Spanish. Martin didn't know what to say and stormed off pretty angry about the whole ordeal

Do you race? If so what's your perspective on giving someone racing room going into a corner side by side? None of us on this board are F1 racers, but those of us who do race on something other than an X-box are certainly entitled to our amateur opinions.

Regards,

Jon

 

The position of the cars, and who is ahead, says it all. They were parallel at turn-in, but MS was ahead at apex. Thus, he had the "line", and JPM did not.
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Amen to that.

I'm still amazed at JPM's and Ralf's car control. All four wheels in the grass and keeping it from spinning. Holy moly!

 

I would posit that the first real corner at Monaco has all the properties of 1 line and only 1 car through it.

 

Ferrari TEAMWORK wins again!! MAny people think it is only the driver, they forget the countless hours of testing and practice that all the members of the team put into the final result - a pole position and/or a first place finish.

Hats off to all of Ferrari. My all time favorite TEAM.

 

Even though im a big MS fan it is starting to get a bit boring when you turn on the tv on a sunday knowing you are going to watch a fight for 2nd, MS is racing for fun now with nothing to prove, we need another Senna,Prost up there to help Michael stay awake. PS Montoya what a prat.

 

Did anybody else catch a comment from Hobbs about the Ferrari and Rubinho? It was something like: "Without Schumacher the Ferrari would be where Rubens is at the moment." which was about P5 or so.

That might be a bit of an overstatement, I think the Ferrari is better than that (and Rubens had a really bad weekend), but it begs the question how good is the Ferrari F1 really and what part goes to MS?

Bahrain obviously had the Ferraris leading everybody, so there the answer is easy, but oddly enough (oddly because Ferrari announced aero and fuel improvements for Imola) in Imola the dominance wasn't as big.

So where would our team stand if it wouldn't be for MS' outstanding driving?

PS: I realize this is a bit of an academic question as without MS there would also be less team support and less car development as seen in 99.

 

Mitch,

I am not sure about Monaco as it is a street circuit. If you read the current FIA regulations for "grade 1" circuits, which all F1 races must meet, they specifically list a minimum of 12 meters for all corners, straight aways and track sections and a maximum of 15 meters. This applies to all permanent track layouts both new and existing.

Since Monoco may not fit their description of a permanent track they may have made an exception as this is the only street circuit on the schedule.

They have made several revisions to "Place Ste Devote" in recent years to make the corner safer.

Consider that the maximum width of any section on an F1 car cannot exceed 180 cm and two cars should more than fit into a corner.

As far as the correct line through a corner, no one is saying two cars should fit though any given corner on the correct line.

Regards,

Jon

 

It is interesting to hear the comments about RB. Had you noticed that through the first three races of the season he was sitting in 2nd place in driver points ahead of Button. I am sure Button is ahead of him now but he is doing exactly what he is to do. Yes, he is not as fast or good as MS but he is still quite a good driver. Who are you going to replace him with, Alonso? Would Alonso be a cooperative teammate or would he be like JPM and RS? Rubens is not going to do anything to imperil MS and everything he can to support him.

Did you read him comments after the race? RS forced him off track at one point and held him up on purpose to allow the slower cars to catch up to him. Even with this he finished 6th and collected three driver points. I like RB and will support him until he proves he can no longer do it.

www.grandprix.com

Check out the driver comments from yesterday.

Oops, I just checked. RB has 24 driver championship points and JB has 23 so RB is still in second. Even with three podiums by Button. I guess RB is fairly consistent.

 

Actually, if you look at the replay JPM appears to be ahead at the apex (I will retract this statement if shown otherwise).

 

Go to www.grandprix.com and see what Patrick Head had to say about the move. It is in todays section, "The Red Planet". He said he knew it was either back off or go off. JPM might have nosed ahead barely at the apex but the speed he was carrying was too much to allow him to complete the turn and stay on track. Was MS supposed to brake hard and stop to allow JPM, who was going too fast to complete the turn successfully, to turn back in? I think not. The laws of physics take over here and tire adhesion has hits limits and JPM pushed them too hard. Yes, speed could have carried him slightly ahead at one point but MS was in more control of his car and in complete control of the corner. It was up to JPM to earn it, not have MS give it to him............

 

From the post-race conference:
Q: (Tony Dodgins – Tony Dodgins and Associates): Juan, sorry to harp on about the incident, but I think you said in the unilaterals you’d gone for the inside, but when we pick up the tv pictures you seem to be driving round the outside…
JPM: That was afterwards. After the first three corners he had a bad exit and I went for the inside.

Q: Was it Tosa?
JPM: No, before Tosa. Turns one, two, three. I don’t know. I’m amazed, I actually got in front of him when we were braking…(while watching television replays) oh know he didn’t see me there (laughter). No chance. You’ve got to be either blind or stupid not to see me. But you know it is racing.

Q: (Tony Dodgins – Tony Dodgins and Associates): At Tosa though, are you not trying to be a bit optimistic to drive around the outside?
JPM: I’ve done it before and it has got quite a lot of grip. I managed to get above my position there and when I was driving out of the corner he just pushed me wide. I’ve done it before at the Nurburgring passing him on the outside. You know he had very little grip on the first few corners. I understand he has got to defend his position, but how far do you go to defend your position that’s the question. Or how far are you allowed to do so.

The whole incident started way before "Tosa" corner. What I saw was JPM chopping across the bow of the Ferrari at the first CHICANE called Tamburello, then follows with repeared attemps to pass the Ferrari through corner 4 and then another CHICANE called "Villenuve" right before "Tosa" where he went off and proceeded in pushing RS off as well, correct? JPM's move was optimistic at best that had started before and then continued with him failing to pass MS at a corner Tosa. It may be legal in the rule book, but it was also a dumb move that can make you look either like a hero or a goat. I think with most of us here on the forum here, it isn't so much as what he did, but more has to do his post-race interview, do you think it was proper of him to do so?

No, I do not race professional, other than some local auto-x. I do not have the talent, time and the money to do so. And no, I don't own an X-box, I do have a SP1 downstairs collecting dust along with an Atari in the garage somewhere. And yes, you have a lot more experience than I and many others do here on the forum, as you seen to have plenty of amature racing than I do. And this has nothing to do with who you like and who you don't like. Yes, I am a Ferrari fan, and yes, I want to see MS win. But I also followed JPM when he was here in the States in CART. I liked and thought highly of him before he started acting like a spoiled brat within the past two seasons or so. And it isn't as much as what your take is on the incident itself, as you are totally entitle to your opinion. But do you not think your initial comment on Mr.Brundle was a bit bold and harsh? And it wasn't just his opinion that JPM made a dumb move and not so appropriate comments at the end, it was also shared by other commentators. You have as much qualification to judge him as much as I am qualified to judge you based on our "racing" experiences. I would like to think that in order for someone to make it into F1 racing, they have and does know "how to race" against other drivers. Otherwise it is hard for me to believe that they would be among the selected few in the world to be doing what they are doing. Don't you think so too?

Regards.
Anthony

 

Oh, and how do we know there was no collision between MS and JPM? I guess I'm naive into thinking that the average person won't lie.......but it seemed like MS didn't contest it and TV coverage of the event was scant at best...

 

Mr. Payne is correct!
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Whatever happens, JPM will never match MS's achievements, and he knows it. No wonder he's bitter.

 

So if a Minardi was flying down to that corner and was a foot ahead and crashed into a car, he would not be to blame? He may have been a head by a foot going in due to late braking but he was going around the outside and using a dirty line. NO way in hell could that work. He was finished as soon as he said "hum the outside path is clear."