I knocked the Festival Sponsor BP out once, by accident!! ;)
He's German, that's his baseline. He looked ready to respond but then went for a jog along the high road, leaving JM looking like a cock without a strut. Cheers to MS and JB for acting like race car divers.
Very incorrect statement! Senna could have jumped straight into just about any car he wanted, but maturely chose not too. He wanted to demonstrate his talent and speed first, and further learn the art. I believe he started in a hopeless Toleman, then Lotus and then McLaren. MS first drove for Jordan ... never was capable of winning (they since have fluked a couple of wins), especially back then. He then drove for Benetton which was a great little car but slower than the all conquering Williams in those days. Those sessons were great to watch. JPM - Yep you are right here ... and hence IMO he has not done his time, and does not understand what an F1 WC really means. Alonso started in a Minardi before being spotted by Renault ... hardly a competitive car. Pete
JM was ahead by about a foot and a half at the so called "pre-apex". He also had to brake and correct steering through the turn so he was losing speed and he did not have the right to claim real estate in that situation. As for a collision, there wasn't one in my replays. In open wheel cars, contact is avoided like a fire in the cockpit. And MS going faster doesn't mean too much is handing out blame, but it could go to saying he had the racing line and he was driving like a normal guy. Not all over the track in and out of the dirty line = being where you shouldn't be. And MS saw him just fine.
That's sign language, which results in car movement for FU! Yeah he may have been correcting a slide, perhaps the back of the car stepped out just for a moment. But It may have been communication with JM too! ))
"he did not have the right to claim real estate in that situation." - Why? I thought the only governance on real estate claim was position. Is speed also required? [I asked this before but no one explicitly stated why...]
Could be, but if you watch Maranelloman's video link, check out the action behind them. As expected, everybody's momentum carried them wider than MS's grace-under-pressure move did on that turn during that lap. Then Wonderboy went wider on the next turn than the approaching cars, save for his own teammate who headed towards greener pastures and ended up mowing lawns on the driving range of the local golf course.
Juan was on a dirty line in a very tight corner, heading for the grass. He was passing on a turn that passing is almost impossible. He tried it on cold tires and on the outside. With those factors and him losing speed as he tried to maintain the stability of his car, he should not have been there. He put himself in a position that made it easy for him to be "held" outside. He tried a pass that was unadvised and he of course didn't make it. Case closed.
You all are making this way to complicated. Talking about "pre apex, at the apex, past the apex etc..... " Here is the official wording from the FIA on overtaking: Chapter IV Article 2c state: "curves, as well as the approach and exit zones thereof, may be negotiated by the drivers in any way they wish, within the limits of the track. Overtaking, according to the circumstances, may be done either on the right or on the left. However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers such as premature changes of direction, more than one change of direction, deliberate crowding of cars towards the inside or the outside of the curve or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited and shall be penalised, according to the importance and repetition of the offences, by penalties ranging from a fi ne to the exclusion from the race. The repetition of dangerous driving, even involuntary, may result in the exclusion from the race." There in nothing in this statement that indicates a driver may not occupy a section of track if he does so in a safe manner and does not force the other driver to change his direction or line. This wording does not indicate that you can't take a different line than the preferred or common one. Why 250 GTO is making the statement that Juan should not have been on the outside of Tosa ( if that is the corner you are referring to) is unclear to me. In addition to the FIA sporting regulations, the general accepted rule in most forms of FIA and international racing is that the overtaking driver must do so in a controled and safe manner and not force contact. In this case Juan was not able to keep control of his car (he started to understeer) and as a result MS did NOT have to give JPM racing room and had every right to go completely out to track out. BUT..............the statement that Juan had no right to even attempt the pass is completely incorrect, as is the statement that he wasn't able to occupy the outside of the corner at entry. It's a judgement call on the part of the overtaking driver if he or she feels a pass can be completed at a particluar corner. If he/she does so then it's that racers responsibility to make the pass as clean as possibly with no contact. For those of you who say a racer shouldn't be on the outside of a corner engaging in late braking have obviously never seen Nigel Mansell race. He did it to Berger twice in 92 and was famous for overtaking people on the outside line. Just my 2 cents worth! Regards, Jon
Jon is right. I think I said before that he should not have been on the outside, and what I meant by that is that it is a risky move, and unlikely to be pulled off ... as you put yourself at the mercy to the driver on the inside. But again I give him credit for having a go ... but not for the talk. Basically Mansell (MS did it once to Alesi through a chicane in the last lap or 2 of a race for the lead) got away with it because Berger was soft ... probably thinking of his next practical joke. Pete
There's nothing wrong with trying to take someone on the outside under braking; however, there's something whiny about trying a risky move only to later whine about the other driver protecting his line. JPM had every right to out brake MS, to dive around the outside, etc. However, MS has every right to protect his line as well... JPM clearly thought he could shake MS up by diving into his right flank... he was wrong, and paid for it by mowing the lawn. All I'm saying , is: if you're going to try the outside, and if the other driver doesn't just roll over for you, then you've got no right to ***** about it... this is racing ... nothing's given to anyone. JPM try, failed, and being the whiner that he is, tried to off the blame on MS, who did NOTHING wrong, nor unsporting.
Hubert, I am in complete agreement with your assesment of JPM's move. I was just trying to clarify the point that while it may have been a stupid and risky move it was perfectly legal to attempt to do so. I think Juan knew that MS would never back off, but I think he was hoping that MS would either a) make a mistake under braking and get loose OR b) back off since he has everything to lose being the points leader with a chance to pad his total at Imola and of course JPM is barely in the title fight. He clearly pulled the move on the wrong person. I think the camera incident (where he got hit in the head) says it all. He's a chronic complainer and whiner !!!! If you ever watched his dad or listened to his dad talk about MS you would know where it comes from. Pablo Sr. is a big cry baby as well. FYI: Even the folks on roadfly.org (BMW board) who have been singing his praises and supporting him the past few years turned on him this week after his Imola cry baby tactics. Maranelloman can confirm this as he too is a regular on that forum. Regards, Jon
Personally, after watching the video again (thanks maranelloman for the link), I think the real incident that warrants discussion is what JPM did to Ralph after the first corner. JPM is an arrogant, hubristic whiner. MS did see him on that corner - you can even see him looking at the right mirror after he took the line - but he probably figured the least hostile way to get out of that press conference was to say he didn't. Don't look into that response too much, it was just MS turning the other cheek. RB is a decent pilot, but you get the feeling that it's the mental games going on inside his head that are to blame for his undulating performance. He had long stints where he backed off from Ralph/Trulli, sandwiched between serious attempts at passing - and these had nothing to do with fresh tyres, fuel stops etc. He isn't able to keep constant pressure on the pilot in front of him the way MS does, hence he doesn't get as many windows of opportunity to take a stab at passing. I think what hurt him a lot also was the lenght of his final pit stop, which was a good 2-3 seconds longer than Trulli's.
What a fun read. For all the moaning about JPM, without him this thread would be about as boring as the last 50 laps of the race. I think MS fastest lap was about .8 of a sec quicker than anybody else and he hasn't suffered an engine failure since ( I think) early 2001. Mansell had the record for 5 wins in a row, if you were a bookie what odds would you put on MS topping it?
Record is 7 wins in a row I believe. Spread across two seasons (6 and 1)Can't remember who had it, it was pretty late at night in Australia when the commentantors mentioned it ;p
Most Consecutive Wins was in F2: 9 Alberto Ascari (1952 -'53) driving a Ferrari 500 Factoid: Skipped Indy 500
Juan being on the outside of Tosa trying to pass Michael Schumacher on the first lap was not smart. How would anyone make that pass? I really can't see that ever happening. For Juans own personal goals for the race, he should have stayed behind and tried at the braking zone of turn 14 just before Rivazza. Any driver can try to overtake on any turn or straight they choose. But when it's an attempt on a corner such as Tosa, how can anyone think that they will make it? He would have to travell 5 times faster through the turn {from where he was entering the turn, up to the point that the turn ends} to actually beat MS. It would never happen. Unless Juan can teleport that ugly nose cone into the future, he should pass where passing is possible.
I have never driven a race car, much less worn a race helmet, so this is essentially a shot in the dark, but... Is it possible that Shumi actually did not "see" him? A couple of reasons I ask this: 1. What is the periphereal view from a race helmet like Shumi's? Is it possible that Whine was not where he could see him? 2. I know when I drive I am looking to the inside of a corner to watch where I am going and follow the line. I presume that a racing driver does the same. So, with these two factors, possible limited vision and looking the other way, put together maybe Shumi didn't "see" him. I imagine that as a F1 driver, or any succesful race car driver, you need to have a fair amount of situational awareness, but just "knowing" that he is there is different from literally seeing him. I know that there are a lot of folks on this board that have race experience, amateur and otherwise, so what do you think? Is it possible that Shumi didn't literally "see" him? As I said, I have NO experience in this, so don't jump all over me for being clueless.
Your view is limited through the helmet, the situation and the vibration on the mirrors. However rest assured somebody with the experience of MS has a very good sense of where people are around him.
Juan was pushing hard from the start and MS was aware that JM would continue to fight as long as he was close. So MS was {I am sure} driving in his mirrors as much as he could. He saw JM like we see the sun.
tifosi12, Yeah, I figure he knew darn well that he was there. The question is, is it possible that he didn't literally see him? As in, if you recorded everything that Shumi saw and played it back, would you see JPM at the point where he is a nose ahead?
Absolutely possible. You do have a blind spot in these cars. You can somewhat judge the other car by hearing, but it is hard, especially in the heat of the moment.
