First off, unless you had a different TV feed then I did (Speed's Italian TV feed) all you know from watching the race is that at some point JPM made a decision to go on the outside and try to either outbrake MS or force him into a an error. If MS had taken the previous corner to Tosa at perfect speed and the correct line with JPM behind him than YES it would appear to be a stupid move, but unless someone else here can conclusively prove this, how do we know what JPM saw at the back of MS's car. The possibility exists that JPM saw MS get loose or go to far to inside to protect his line. As for not being able to ever see this really happening (a pass on the outside at Tosa) this might be news to Pironi who passed Villeneuve twice in Tosa at the 82 San Moreno GP, once on the inside and once on the outside, the last pass for the win agains GV. Another example which I have brought up is that of causing the car in front to make a mistake by attempting a pass on the outside or simply putting pressure on someone. 1987 San Moreno GP, early in the race Alboreto passed Senna for third place at Tosa when he took the outside line and forced Senna to miss a shift. Senna did what MS did and crowded Alboreto at trackout but then made a mistake to loose the position. Sometimes, putting enough pressure on someone causes a mistake. I will often times take a different line, sometimes an outside line, to put pressure on the other car in front even if I don't intend to pass on the outside. At the minimum this causes the driver in front to check his mirrors and may cause him to miss a turn in point or the apex. And lastly, though not the case with JPM, a very late braking maneuver on the outside can sometimes benefit you if you can switch back to the inside if the car in front gets loose at track out or understeers. There are a million reasons JPM might have thought that what he did would earn him a position. Could be he was just making a boneheaded move because his latin temper got the best of him, could also be he was trying to force a mistake, or he saw something from behind MS's car (getting loose), or a zillion other different things. I think the point is that had he not whined about it like a big cry baby we wouldn't be saying it was stupid or impossible move without knowing the facts. On the subject of MS not seeing him that is baloney in my opinion. You don't go into corners in F1 at 120 mph +, especially in the first few laps on cold tires, without knowing exactly where everyone is. MS knew where JPM was and did the appropriate thing by forcing JPM to back off or mow the lawn, or risk taking them both out. This is the same excuse Ralph used when he took RB and KR out at the first corner last year. "I didn't see him" is not a valid excuse if you hit him in a place he has a right to be (clearly not the case in this discussion). As I stated in my opinion, the minute JPM's car washed wide (understeer) it was now MS's corner, plain and simple, and he had every right to use every last inch of track and even some grass. Regards, Jon
Your examples are too old to be of use here. The cars are so far advanced that passing at tosa {today} is not the thing to do. If MS had to downshift he would have and it would have been in the blink of an eye. JM would still be in deep sh*t and nothing would have changed. These cars corner so quick and always on the total edge, that passing means the driver in front already made a mistake. Back in the day, you could pass by a missed shift or the car sliding going into or leaving a turn. Now, it just doesn't happen. The cars are too good for passing, without someone making a big mistake.
There were plenty of passes last season due to the mistakes of drivers in front when either entering a turn or exiting one. Obviously missing a shift doesn't apply in these times, but on cold tires and with those grooves, as you pointed out the cars are always on edge. Possibly your point about Tosa not being a place to pass is valid but the statement that with todays technology you can't make a mistake in that corner is invalid. On cold grooved tires it's easy to make a mistake. Look at JPM passing MS at brazil a few years ago in turn 1 at Brazil. And last season there were plenty of mistakes made in corners that led to passes. Remember Kimi Riakonnen and RB going side by side through Bridge corner at the British GP last year with neither giving up an inch. Kimi got loose on the dirt and went wide and RB went right by him. Few laps later Juan pressured Kimi into another mistake a few corners later that sent him two wheels into the dirt and let Juan by. MS made a heroic pass on the outside at Hockenheim on Trulli late in the race in 2003. JPM forced MS into an error at Magny Cours in of all places turn 7 to take a position. MS spun into the dirt and kept the engine running so he could be pushed out. I will concede that making a pass at Tosa even with the inside driver making a mistake is very unlikely and probably a dumb move on JPM's part but there are plenty of mistakes made through the course of a season when two cars are battling for postion. I guess we agree to disagree on this point. Regards, Jon
Jon: I only posted to reaffirm your assesment of the situation, and made my comment to clear up the confusion started by 62 250 GTO regarding whose right to which part of "real estate." Everyone is seemingly forgetting that the overtaking driver is burdoned with the responsibility to make a clean pass!! Period. JPM tried a DIRTY move on MS, and then had the audacity to WHINE about it in the press conference; he belongs in NASCAR as far as I'm concernced. Maybe he'll finally be able to excercise his penchant to "slug it out" with just about anyone... including camera men. " You focking idiot ... you broke my focking head ..."
I wasn't questioning if Schumi could see him or not in order to provide an excuse to Schumi. It was just something I was wondering. Schumi knew he was there and acted accordingly. IMO JPM was ill advised trying to go around the outside and Schumi made him pay for it.
In regards to this whole discussion I came across this picture on itv's website. With the commentary it is perfect! http://www.itv-f1.com/photos/f1_high/38
Matt, I wasn't responding directly to your question but the general question by everyone on this thread. Sorry if it came off that way. Regards, Jon
I just have to repost a comment I made on another thread, please bear with me... Hi guys! This is my first post and is something near and dear. I ripped wacko-Frankl in Forza last year because he was all but asking for a date with JPM in the USGP write-up. He responded with a lot of the same Montoya drival I am seeing here, ie."he adds so much to F1", "he is a great interview" (Frankl moaned about having to endure a Hakkinen intreview), "he will be the next heir..." blah, blah, blah. As many have mentioned here, actions talk and BS walks. JPM has never, and will never, have what it takes to be a F1 champ. Unlike MS and others we consider world class drivers, JPM has never been able to deliver with less than a perfect car. Anyone remember 2000, the year after Montoya won the CART championship? Nothing! He was mired in mid-field, blaming the car, the crew, the owner, the other drivers, "I won Indy because of me", etc., etc. Sound familiar? So what happened during his 1999 championship year? To quote the imortal Niki Lauda: "A trained monkey could have won the championship in a car like that!" The US fans (except for the women and a few guys who still lusted after him) lost interst in the class-less champion from last year and moved on. The very reason he takes shots at the US motorsport fans every chance he gets. For the folks who think he is a talented driver - go back and do your homework. Closing your eyes and poking your nose inside someone when you do not have position is not talent. When someone like JV calls him dangerous, you know the guy is pulling some silly "stuff" out on the track. I'm sorry, but the guy is a bum. I can't wait for Kimi to stuff him next year. But then we will again have to endure all the crying and knashing of teeth, no team support, bad car, bad crew, bad owner......hmmm have we been here before? There are so many superior drivers in F1 (aside from the pay-per's), I just do not understand the attraction. If you want personality, I'll take JV or (one of the best!) Jean Alesi. Give me drive, passion, talent (gasp!). THAT is what makes F1 exciting! Not some wanna-be running his mouth. You want that kind of crap, watch wrestling. Oh, and as for not wanting to pass RB? Well, JPM, paybacks are a female dog (please see 2003 USGP). Oh I'm sorry, I got it all wrong! That one was not your fault either! Jim If you look at the tape just before poor little Juanny went for a drive in the pasture, he was able to get inside and next to MS. When he did, he turned right into him - very, very obvious. MS took evasive action and was able to out-accelerate. That is when JPM went to the outside, and I'm sure that is the reason MS gave him a gentle nudge! Listening to JPM piss and moan makes me ill. F1 does separate the men from the boys. I rest my case. Thanks, Jim
