I took my Stradale to the track today (click here to read about that)... the car performed great. The tires did not. In particular, towards the end of a session, I started pulling chunks out of the tread in the corners. I know another Stradale owner who experienced the same... in fact, he had FMoD replace the fronts... I saw the old ones... lots of big chunks all the way around! Any of you other Stradale owners had any issues with the tire performance on the track? Any of you experience any chunking problems? Any of you have more tire rubber on your wheels than brake dust? What pressures are you guys running on the track?
I am glad to see you take your brand new CS to the track. How was the experience other than the tire situation? I think what you see is normal for those tires. I have a 360 and I am on my 2nd set of tires (Pilot Sports and now P0s). When I track my car one can see the rubber sort of collecting at some parts on the surface of the tires. I think it is worse on the P0s, and may have something to do with threadwear (120 and 220 for Pirelli and Michelin respectively). The Stradale tires are rated at threadwear of 60 so, I can imagine it will be worse. On the tire pressure, I always run a couple of pounds more for the track in the tires and monitor the wear when I come out to the pits. I look at the wear very carefully and adjust the pressure accordingly. I pay close attention to the wear on the sides. If it is too much need more air if it is too little meaning the thread on the side is not getting worn, I take a few pounds. But I would start with the factory recommended plus a couple or three pounds more. Cheers, Matt
Brian--Have your tires been heat cycled? Did you take your first laps at 6/10's to slowly warm them up? What was the track temperature? Air temperature? Sorry--lots of questions. On thing would have been useful is an infrared pyrometer. This is a gizmo that provides "touchless" temperature readings. Next time you are at the track, see if someone has one and read the outer, middle and inner termperature (across the width of the tread)--that might give you some clues if you haven't figured it out by then. Of course, the likely reason is that you were doing track things on full depth street tires, and street tires just don't handle that sort of thing that well. I think the Tire Rack website (www.tirerack.com) has good info on heat cycling and tread shaving tires for track use. Time for either track/street tires, or a second set of wheels (CHA CHING).
Anyone aware of any track tires for the Stradale? I have not heard of any yet. Brian, thanks for the debrief on your track experiences, very helpful for other Stradale folks. If I can get to a track soon, I'll try to take temps and pressures systematically - might even use the old shoe polish on the tire edge trick. Will
I have a spider but run it on CS rims and tyres. On the road I have had no problem but a friend of mine is a nominated test driver for Ferrari in France. He had the first CS in France and suffered the same issue as you. This was especially bad on Magny Cours since the back straight allows you to get to top speed before arriving at a hairpin which has to be taken at 30mph in second gear. He went through 3 sets of tyres in 3 months of CS ownership! However, when I saw him recently we talked about this issue and he said that the CS tyres are now made of a slightly harder compound. This had stopped the chunking occuring. I would recommend seeing how your second set goes before looking elsewhere.
Get a tire probe-point pyrometer and take some temperature readings. You want the middle temperature to be the average of the inside and outside temperatures. Too hot->overinflated; not hot enough->underinflated You want an even gradient fron outside to inside and the inside 10dF to 20dF hotter than the outside. Inside hot->too much camber; outside hot->not enough camber One result might be that the suspension is just fine and the capabilities of the car are beyond the work capabilities of those tires. A pyrometer is the way to know.
Heh... you didn't "click here", now did ya? (see above... and click) I am very accustomed to R-compound tires... its not rubber stuck to the tires... that's normal... its chunks of rubber missing from the tires that's a problem. That's about where I was, and I was getting good wear to the edges, but not over the edges at all. So, I had enough pressure, though perhaps too much. But I wouldn't think 32# cold would sooo too much that it would justify chunking.
Yes, the tires got a good heat cycle almost every day I've owned it (about 11 heat cycles prior to today). First lap is at about 7/10ths to warm the tires... they're not too grippy cold. Mid-80's today; overcast, so track wasn't much hotter... but I didn't measure it. Actually, I have one. I used to keep it in my 360 glove box so that I could take quick measurements with the car "at temp". The Stradale has no box, so I had left it in the clubhouse. Had I known I'd have tire issues, I'd have probably tucked it in the mesh holders in the back. I'll do that next Friday so that I can get some accurate measurements. Yep, but the problem is those ARE track tires... or supposed to be. But it may be they need shaving. Unfortunately, you can't buy them through TireRack and I don't think Ferrari offers tire shaving. I'd switch to Michelin Pilot Sport Cups, but they don't come in 19" sizes yet. I've used the Kumho ECSTA V700's on my Modena... but again, none in 19" sizes. And no, 18" wheels won't fit over the Stradale brakes.
Brian, I am sorry about your tire problems. It is highly likely that I will be at MSR next Friday, at least in the afternoon. I am instructing that weekend for a PCA event there, and another MSR member has invited me & a friend up for a member's day. Depending on weather, I many bring the 550...although I suspect that is may be a bit too much car for MSR, especiallyon the crap Pilot Sports I currently have. Anyway, I hope to see you then.
what was the tire / wheel temperature? I found the tires to be really! hot even after some cool down time one guess I have is that the carbon fiber disks store & radiate a lot of heat this could push temperature to the tire limit and could be a reason for chunking it is hard to check since tires change temperature so fast and measurements after a cool down lap are next to useless note that an infrared pyrometer does not cut it; you need to penetrate the surface to get a reasonable picture; you also need to stop fast one other thing I dont consider the CS run in after 500 miles not sure about the tires but the brakes and the engine change behavior significantly after 1000 1500 miles cant remember the tire run in period 200 miles? but new tires generate more heat until they are broken in
Brian, Have you heard if Michelin is coming out with Sport Cups in the 19" soon? I am having some serious reservations about tracking my Stradale knowing that the tires will not be up to the task of some good lapping I recall taking out my 996tt with an Evo Stage 4 kit with 600 HP equipped with the Sport Cups and with the proper tire pressures (and brake pads) I could lap at 10/10ths until the gas tank ran dry The 996tt was about 400 lbs heavier then the Stradale and yet the Sport Cups just kept on going without loosing any grip, it was an assume tire for the track!!
No, but I haven't been researching it at all... until now. I'll let you know what I find out. Oh, sheesh, don't let that stop you! Every Stradale needs to see the track!
Perhaps, but didn't seem particularly hot to me. And if they got that way today, they have no prayer when I cut another 2 seconds off my lap time in the next couple months, and its 100'F air temp and 120'F track temp. Yep... to see absolute temps. Not sure I'll be willing to do that given I don't want to risk damaging the brakes. At least not until I have some good confidence in the brakes holding up well. The infrared pyrometer is fine for quickly measuring the temps to see if there is a delta inside vs. middle vs. outside. The tires should be pretty run in. Especially after the lunch break following the second session. The engine may continue to "mature" for several thousand miles... I know my M3 improved markedly up to about 8k miles... others have claimed it didn't peak out until about 20k miles.
I will be at the DE as well, driving a 1983 white 911 with a ducktail. Car #90. Drop by and say hello. If I can get there early enough on Friday, I may catch the last member session as well.
I will, Rob. What PCA group are you in? If I don't bring the 550 (for instance, if it is likely to rain), I will have a silver 1997 M3.
I'll be driving Blue Solo. If you happen to become free during the Blue group, maybe you can come for a ride and provide some instruction. I expect to be very rusty as I have not driven the course CCW since November. I'm having some mechanical issues in my 911 right now that might also force a car change as well. If I can't get them sorted out I'll be bringing either a white 968 or maybe even the 355.
Will do! I usually will be given a Green & a Blue student. With any luck, my Blue will Solo during the weekend, so I may have some free time to work with you. Best, Dave
there is a Pirelli warranty flyer in the car manuals set - I states that racing or other competitive events are not covered - however to talk to Pirelli might be some way to get a response for why
Chunking that you have described is caused by the tread blocks being too tall and thus not supported enough. Only solution is to shave the tyre down to say a 3mm tread depth. Basically the tread compound is TOO soft to have that smaller tread block OR that deeper tread. I assume that the CS comes with Bridgestone tyres?, but I am amused that Bridgestone have not resolved this issue. They had the same problem with their RE71r tyres that were street legal but a supposedly racing compound. I have used the RE71r tyres AFTER shaving them and they are a great little tyre but I have also seen people fnck them in ONE race meeting because they ignored the advise to shave them. Bit worried that Bridgestone are that thick EDIT: Just read that they are Pirelli tyres. Same issue just different supplier Pete
Just ordered a set of shaved Corsas, should have them in a few weeks. Now I need an extra set of wheels. Wish I'd picked a cheaper hobby ....
There are no cheap hobbies - a friend of mine spends thousnads of dollars on his bicycle, tens of dollars on titanium nuts and bolts, carbon fibre this and that, sadles, wheels, spokes, shoes, cloths, everything. His current bike frame alone cost around $3k and he's no Tour de France winner, just a hobby!!!!!