Schu in Another car

Nice post Owsi.

I didn't exactly know what "Doing a Rossi" is, but I assume it is joining a weaker team to bring them victory? I don't watch moto GP, so please forgive me on the matter. But, this aside, yes Ferrari was going extremely poorly when MS joined, but taking Ferrari's weak performance at the time, EVERYONE knew of Schumacher's potential. Noone questioned he had the potential and skill to bring Ferrari to world championship victory, it was in his blood, he had proved that before he joined, and that is exactly what he was able to do.

Want to know the first sign of his skill in a weak Ferrari? Of those wins in the first/second season guess how many were in the wet.

MS showed his supremacy when it rained, when other drivers couldn't push as hard in their faster cars, MS made the Ferrari shine in the wet. Rain is always the great equalizer, hence the infamous F1 headline in a popular Italian sports magazine, "Let's hope it rains Sunday".

Eventually the team performed better and better, to win races, going on to win championships and eventually to break almost every existing F1 record with MS. Michael will never again pull a Rossi (if my assumption of the term is correct), why on earth would he need to now? His contract with Ferrari will last until the end of his piloting career and through the spirit of loyalty, a VERY healthy salary, and respect for the people that love to see him at Ferrari, for him to leave the team at this stage of his career would be ridiculous. I also strongly believe that once his piloting days are over, he will probably still be hired behind the scenes to work with Ferrari mechanics and their new pilots. The imput he can give to a team is invaluable, and I doubt Ferrari will let him go.

And the biggest doubt of rouce is that he can totally detatch himself from F1 (and Ferrari) when he is too old to race.

 

aventino, sorry but have to disagree with you in the extreme. prost is/was a fantastic driver, and i was happy to watch and revel in his greatness when he was active. but he failed miserably with the takeover of ligier, and although there are probably a million mitigating circumstances, this situation and result would not happen if schumi ever ran a team, imho. and therein lies the difference between the 2 drivers.
yes ferrari neglected to listen to prost, and were more receptive to schumi, but schumi is the glue that holds the whole place and personnel together - and this is simply not a role the professor could have played as effectively.

 

Look I have watched every F1 race since I cannot remember ... I do remember Gilles Villeneuves accident though.

Ferrari were good when Mansell and Prost were there BUT not McLaren or Williams like, Ferrari then spiralled DOWN hill with 2 useless drivers IMO, Berger and Alesi.

- Berger - only drives hard when he is having one of those days, the rest of the time he is a joker.
- Alesi - Brilliant car control, especially in changing conditions, BUT does not know how to win races.

When MS joined Ferrari they were a long way BEHIND Williams and McLaren, actually probably comparable to Aprilia now in MotoGP.

Everybody else has provided the facts ... so go and buy yourself a donut mate

Note:
I am totally sick and tired of people that do not know F1 slagging off MS for driving for the all conquering team. MS made that team. It was so bad that everybody I worked with used to laugh at me for being the hopeless Ferrari supporter.

Infact if you look back through the COMPLETE F1 history of Ferrari they have only ever starred for very short periods, ie. '52-'53, '74-'79. Every other WC win was a one year win and then back to race winners or struggling with old fashioned equipment. The notion of Ferrari historically being the dominant team in F1 is rubbish. The Italians through very conservative designs have held the team back over the years, with continue use of front engined dinosaurs, drum brakes, non-monocoque chassis's, flat 12 engines in the ground effect days ... and it goes on.

Even look at their sportscars. They won because the motors were strong, not because the cars were advanced, or Enzo played with the rules. Compare Jim's P3/4 to his GT40 MkIV ... both raced at the same time and the Ferrari is a joke in comparison!

Pete

 

being team manager and lead driver are a bit different so I don't think you could compare the takeover of Ligier and Prost's attempt at management. I am not so sure MS would do any better in Prost's situation and without the bottomless supply of money that the Ferrari name has access to. And as for PSK's comment that MS in a Minardi would be getting up to 8th, on what planet are we talking. There is no way MS could get in the car and shave 3 or 4 seconds off the lap time when he is lucky to get .2 to .5 ahead of Rubens. You are tired of people slagging off MS and you come up with comments like that. If we say that there are 5 sec between the fastest and slowest cars I doubt Ms would be worth more than 1 or 1 and a half. Until team orders get ditched and there is no number 2 driver at Ferrari stuck playing second fiddle how can anyone ever know?

 

Aventino, I am reading into what you are saying a fair bit here, but since this is a fairly common argument, I am thinking I may not be far off. What you seem to be saying is "RB is as quick as MS, he just hangs back to hold up the competition so MS can get away." I don't know if this holds up. Consider the lap times from the first part of the race in Bahrain:

Lap 1 - MS is 1.5 ahead of RB who is .8 ahead of JPM
Lap 2 - MS is 2.7 ahead of RB who is more than 1 second up on JPM
Lap 3 - MS is 3.3 ahead of RB who is 2.4 ahead of JPM

JPM is losing time to RB. How can RB be holding JPM up if JPM is falling back? So, if RB is not back 3.3 behind MS to hold up the rest of the field, what is he doing back there? Changing the radio station? MS has done a lot for Ferrari, and he has won the championships that he has because of their willingness to go along with him and to spend gobs of money. Don't forget, though, that he got his ride in Benetton, and thus his start toward his first championship, because he went out in a Jordan at Spa and put up a qual. time of 151.212 to take 7th on the grid. Senna was at 147.811 in the McLaren for 1st. Maybe he does have some driving ability to go along with everything else.

 

I don't deny it all I am saying is bring on someone else in the same car without team orders and lets see how they go. I have no doubt that when MS retires and Alonso or someone else steps in it's going to be about 400 years before some people on this board accept that Ferrari aren't still winning because of something MS did 400 years previous. Others will come along (and are maybe out there now) that may achieve as much. I am a Ferrari fan not an MS fan, I couldn't care if he stays or goes he's just their current driver.

 

I was talking about 1 lap qualifying. Look what miracles Weber pulled with Jaguar last year!

Anyway, you seem to think that MS has team orders that are not deserved. Or to put it another way to SLOW RB. No the team orders are simply to help MS win.

In 2002 everybody was talking about how much better RB was driving and how much closer he was to MS, etc. and how MS better watch out, etc. Then we went to SPA, and I think MS decided to put RB in his place. Go and watch that race Aventino ... that was the only time that year that MS RACED the car for most of the race, the other races he just cruised around and picked up the win.

In that SPA race he embarrassed RB so much that he must have gotten out of his car after that race and run off and had a teary eyed phone call to his Mummy.

I remember vividly MS constantly breaking the lap record (or atleast fastest race lap) while he had a huge lead, but he did not care, he was showing the doubters that he still had it, and he pissed all over RB and everybody else that day. If I remember right he finished something like 1/2 a lap ahead of RB at the end in EXACTLY the same car

I will say again I have only ever witnessed ONE single RB race worth talking about, and unfortunately he was forced to hand over the win to MS! Until RB learns that you have to race from the very millisecond the race starts until the very end, and not just cruise and wait to see what happens he is not of MS's level.

In the past (in MS's early days with Ferrari) there were many race wins that were wins made by MS by lapping at right on qualifying times between fuel stops!. Brilliant, RB could not do that, JPM could not, KR could not, infact I cannot think of another driver who could except for Stirling Moss (who did very close to qualifying laps for the WHOLE Monaco GP one year to win in Rob Walkers Lotus!!!!).

Thus those here who have watched F1 for many years, very much see these Ferrari dominant times as MS + Ferrari dominant times and when MS retires Ferrari WILL slow. MS is like a top quality engine oil, he makes it possible for the team to run smoothly and IMPORTANTLY all motivated in the right direction. This is a first for Ferrari, never have we seen such professionalism, etc. usually it is an Italian joke or firing team members and listening to the press, etc.

Now much of that must be credited to Jean Todt definitely, but he will retire soon and Ferrari will have to rebuild after loosing 2 (and more) of the most important members of the team. History books will record this period as the Schumacher Ferrari period, just like they recorded Lauda's influence, etc.

Oh and to go back to that first race in the Jordan ... he destroyed his team mate in his very first GP ... totally embarrassed him in front of his team. One example: His team mate was having trouble in one fast section of SPA, and was discussing it with his engineers, etc. and just could not get the setup right. MS mentioned that he just went in to that corner a little fast in 1 higher gear and gave a little lift and that settled the car and away he went ... the other driver (who had many seasons under his belt) could not believe it, nor could the engineers, ie. the new boy was brave and tallented enough to try entering a corner purposely too fast, etc.

That very first race was enough for Senna to take notice!, and I believe to have a chat to MS about how he ran the show here boy, etc.

Now you may not believe me, or the others on this site, but I think Senna had a much better understanding and view of his opposition than we ever did or will, and he knew straight away that somebody had arrived that was going to threaten him ... something to think about.

I have to admitt, that I do hope that MS does not retire at the end of this year. I have to admitt also that I hope Ferrari balls up the design of next years car. Why?, I just want to witness one more time the true brilliance of car control that is vintage MS, before he finally retires. We currently rarely see it, because the car is too good

Pete

 

I am also a Ferrari fan. I will continue to cheer for Ferrari after MS leaves. However, as a Ferrari fan, I DON'T want to see him leave. Why? Because he WINS! I have been supporting him on this board because I am also a fan of MS. I don't understand why so many people seem to think that they can just go out and get another driver to replace MS and that driver would have the same success. If it was that easy, ALL the other teams would do it! MS is unique. Drivers like him come along once in a long while. Look at Jackie Stewart and Tyrrell. With him they won championships. Without him, they never won one again. I am certainly not saying Ferrari will never win again once MS leaves, but the fact is, it WILL be a long time before they have a period of such dominance again.

 

Or better yet, the spain race in 1994 when MS finished 2nd after driving the better part of the race with his transmission locked in 5th gear!

 

Right now Schumacher IS Ferrari. As many before me have said he was responsible for building the team. As for having THE car he almost always outshines his teamate (and IM a huge Barichello fan) He is the superior driver, We are witnessing history everytime he races. I went to the USGP last year and watched his car control as the weather changed. (a very cold rain) I think a tornado could sweep across the track and he would probably set fastest lap! He is the MAN period.....

 

I agree, if he were in a Minardi with a flat tyre he could still put it on pole easily, with a blindfold on. Nobody had even heard of Ferrari before MS joined them, there is a rumour that they might have one a GP or two, but too long ago to matter. As it is he doesn't earn a tenth of what he deserves, I propose a $200,000 per car levy on all new Ferraris sold that goes straight to MS. New F-Car owners should be honoured that they have a chance to contribute to his meagre income.
If he ever retires then the whole factory and Ferrari F1 effort has to shut down for good and be turned into a shrine to MS. Without him they'll be back to the back row again, slower than Minardi (i.e. slower than a drunk snail in a treacle spill).

 

Anyone else getting sick of dumb, sarcastic statements that add nothing to a discussion?

MS is the best pilot in F1. If you don't believe so, it's noone else's problem but your own. The numbers speak for themselves.

 

Strasse, Micheal's there for Micheal, he's not there for Ferrari (witness the time he acted like a f**kwit for the Italian national anthem). Until there is no Nr1 and Nr2 at Ferrari and someone else on the grid with maybe more talent than Rubens gets a go in that two car team on more even terms (a la Prost and Senna a few years back) we are never really going to know, are we? We are not really going to know the value of Brawn or Todt or even Rubens.

So there is no way I am going to support him when I don't think he gives a rats arse about the team or the possibility that anyone else in years to come might also be able to win a WC in a red car.

 

So says you. Have you ever watched footage of the team singing and chanting when they play the italian anthem? There is a few people in the Ferrari garage that like to sing along to the anthem, (loudly and over-drammatically). They are mucking about having some fun, and MS is having fun with them too.
Funnily how I, being Italian, never once have been offended MS 'acting like a f**kwit' as you state it. Maybe you shouldn't be so uptight about it.

If barichello was better than MS he would be number 1 and number 2. All teams work this way. Simple as that.
MS proved himself when he joined Ferrari. He proved himself when he began winning races in a car that was lucky to finish. He proves himself every time he races, and now he is proving himself breaking F1 records. If you're making statements like these, then I have no idea how in the world you define skill in motor racing.
Of course he is racing for himself, but noone is forcing him to stay at Ferrari.
Brawn and Todt are extremely valuable to the team, but sadly neither of them can fit into a F1 car, so maybe you should really attribute some of the success to MS too...

What are you basing this statement off??? Show me a F1 driver that drives without pay. I truly believe you're wrong on this one. He is loved by the team, and whenever I see the rappor between him and Todt, especially in the post race embrace, it is clear MS cares deeply about the team that has enabled him to be the best driver in the history of the sport. But don't for one second think he doesn't deserve that accolade.

For pete's sake, people to this day are still talking about Fangio. You're watching the next great thing in F1. Enjoy it...

 

You want to run a gentleman's wager that once MS cleans up the title, and only then, Rubens will (be allowed to) start winning.

 

I don't see how that (a topic which has been done to death) has anything to do with MS's skill is a driver, which is what you were trying to debate in the first place. As a matter of fact, I don't see how any of it diminishes the abilities of Michael behind the wheel.
But you are dead wrong if you honestly believe that the only reason why Rubens isn't world champion is because Ferrari isn't allowing him to win. As an example, compare his lap times and peformance at san marino this year vs. Michael. I don't think Rubens is a bad pilot at all, but you've got to be yanking my chain if you believe he's on the level of Schumacher.

Ferrari is full of politics, but I'll repeat what I said, the reason why there is a number 1 and number 2 (just like at any other team), is because one driver is better than the other. Talent is not difficult to spot in F1, and sooner or later, the good drivers end up in good teams.
Rubens is free to win any race he wants. Last year Michael won the WC thanks to Rubens, Ferrari won the constructors thanks to Rubens. So of course RB will win races this year, why on earth would Ferrari be retarding his peformance intentionally? So why isn't he winning now? All you need to do is look at the qualifying times. Has Rubens outqualified MS yet? Beaten his lap times on the track? No. So maybe that's the reason why RB isn't winning, not because of a conspiracy.

If you don't like MS based on his personality, and a lot of people I have met feel that way, you're certainly free to do so. And nothing will ever convince you otherwise. But give credit where credit is due, his performance is always brilliant, he has helped a struggling team become great once again, he is racing at an age when a lot of other pilots retire and still the best. Like him or loathe him, you have to respect what he can do.

 

to be absent... Give him any car and he will get at least one quick lap out of it... Give him the same car and ask him to develop it further and you have the FW25a/b and now FW26. If it can break he can break it sooner without recourse or insight... MS is an alien pure and simple. Put him in the W, BAR, Renault and the races would just be a bit closer, but the result probably the same.

 

You mean "M" of McLaren, do you?

 

Don´t forget "The Ross Brawn Boys". The real "Ferrari rising" was in 1997, when the new technical team came to Maranello, not when MS joined the team: in 1996 they won three races but were not competitive and two of that three wins were quite lucky.

 

If Montoya had the Ferrari, and Schumey had the Williams, I think Montoya would beat him 9 times out of 10, using the cars as they are right now.

 

I completely agree, I think that switch would also be true with JB, MW, FA, KR just as easily.

 

Too bad that would never happen - I would like to see it considering I totally disagree.

The Williams/McLaren (maybe not so much anymore)/BAR/Renault cars all have the ability to turn fast laps and win races. They have good drivers but none that are on the level of Michael Schumacher. He is quite possibly the BEST driver in the HISTORY of Formula 1. This is not to be taken lightly.

If the car is so great then why isn't Rubens winning races or finishing 2nd every single race like Michael is finishing 1st? Are those drivers you listed really that much better than RB? No, in fact some of them are not better at all. If you put Michael in any of those cars he would use his vastly superior driving ability to win races - he might not win EVERY SINGLE ONE like he is now, but he would win them, for sure.

 

Do you want to "run a gentleman's wager" that if MS cleans up the title and Rubens starts winning I can come on this board and say that MS is letting Rubens win?

 

The Ferrari car is substantially faster than all the others. Last year was not the case. There were races last year where the Ferraris just did not have pace on the front runners. Where was Micheal's superhuman driving ability? Shouldn't he have been able to simply crush all opposition?