Back to the 360 Challenge v. Stradale issue....

Yep, I am *very* disappointed in the 3152lb weight reported by C&D. Makes me really hope that 360 was indeed a Ford re-build! But I don't think so (I think Ford was disassembling 360M's, not CS's, given the timing). Given that number is accurate and the carbon brakes are Porsche-like track-unworthy POS brakes, I think I would not have the car on order!

Anyway, if that weight is accurate, I completely drop my assertion that a CS can hang anywhere near a C... Ferrari is just blowing us BS on its track times along with the weight figure. A 300 to 350 lb weight delta is worth more than 50 horses on track, leaving the CS with less than 0 to make up for the racecar setup.

My prior assertion was that it was *plausible* that the CS could run with a C, if and only if the CS weighed 2822 to the C's 2800 and much of the CS weight reductions were in unsprung weight (which is worth much more than sprung weight), coupled with the better brakes and aero and the extra 25hp, then you have a legit argument that all that can overcome the racecar setup of the Challenge. If half of that is BS and a quarter of that only lasts until you eat through your rotors in 2500 miles, then you're left with nothing more than a slight improvement on the Modena.

I am sure hoping that someone put a 300lb weight set in the trunk and nobody from the magazine bothered to open the trunk. I'll definitely be finding some scales to weigh my current Modena and then my soon-to-arrive Stradale. Anyone have a CS and access to scales??? Please??

Not too happy right now,

Brian

 

I haven't weighed a Stradale, but standard 360 challenge cars with no fuel do weigh the claimed 1170kg or 2580 lbs.

If a Stradale does weigh 1270kg or 2800lbs as claimed, then I think the extra power/torque, and downforce would make a chunk of time up.

The brakes would be interesting to compare, Challenge brakes are awesome even std, but get much more durable with grooved discs and decent pad material. I've not raced with std discs/pads for 3 years so can only say .........

that over one lap there's not much in it, but over 20 or 30...the challenge with grooved discs and decent pads is untouchable.

I'll hopefully get a chance to give more info soon, as a few stradale's will surface in Australia shortly.....

 

The claimed curb weight in the owner’s manual of the CS is 3000 lb

My CS did come in at:
- Total 3096 lb
- LF weight 632
- RF weight 657
- LR weight 898
- RR weight 909
- Front 1289 41.6%
- Cross 1550 50.2%
- Right 1566 50.5%

The same measurements with me at the wheel came in at:
- Total 3283 lb
- LF weight 704
- RF weight 690
- LR weight 940
- RR weight 930
- Front 1394 42.4%
- Cross 1650 50.2%
- Right 1620 49.3%

Since I did not want to corner balance the car no special care was taken to ensure that the scales are level; some of the individual results may be off.

Dry weight would be around 2916lb (measured) or 2820lb (manual) assuming (30gallons x 5.6 pounds).

Based on Brian’s thread “Fiorano Track times …” I have a hard time to see how the CS can hang with the Challenge car:

0'56"33 F2003-GA (2003, MS)
0'58"38 F2002 (2002, MS)
0'59"00 F1 310B (1997, MS)
1'00"31 F1 412T1 (1994, Alesi)
1'11"90 Ferrari 333SP (slicks)
1'18"90 360 N-GT
1'22"30 Enzo (2003)
1'22"40 360 Challenge
1'25"40 355 Challenge (1997?, wing, slicks, Nicola Larini)
1'26"50 355 Challenge (1995, no wing, streets)
1'27"00 F50
1'28"00 F50 (1995)
1'28"00 360 Challenge Stradale
1'29"60 F40
1'30"00 F40 (1987)

 

Thomas,

How much fuel was in the tank?

 

Well, we all know that a Modena does a 1.30 at Fiorano and I normally say that the CS doing it 2 seconds faster would be great, if it weren't for the fact that the CS comes with Pirelli Corsa tyres, which would be worth at LEAST that much in time! How disappointing.

 

full

- thomas

 

Thomas...very helpful information. A few questions: Does your car have 5 MPH bumpers installed in lieu of the 2.5 MPH as in the US? There may be some weight in them. I was also wondering if your car had the factory stereo, roll bar, fire ex, or anything else that may have added some weight to your Stradale?

 

It is an US car so assume the 2.5 mph bumpers (and the inside looks massive) - I have the fire ex. (~8lb I assume) and the SR7 & ZR3 Radar detector - otherwise only the OEM stuff (tools, flat tire fix, etc.)

 

Thomas,
Thanks for posting the weight of your CS. That will help to clear up some of the issues. Now we need the weight of a 360M. I may take mine and put it on the scales.

 

Really? Or are you just rounding here? What *exactly* does the owner's manual say the weight is???

The sales brochure claims 1280kg (2822 lbs) with fuel and 1180kg (2601 lbs) without fuel! That is sooooo disappointing. I was hoping for the super-light road car that Ferrari was advertising it to be!

So, given the Modena owner's manual says 3086lbs and the CS owner's manual says 3000lbs, where does Ferrari get off saying they've saved 110kg (242 lbs)?? Such blatant BS!

I think I need to write Ferrari and demand a refund of $11,000 (6% of weight, 6% of purchase price)! Or maybe I should go with 35% of weight savings, 35% of price premium?

Nice balance... but even fatter!... and even more disappointing!! Maybe that's a 96 lb fire extinguisher... I'll just get rid of that!

Thomas, do you have leather or alcantara? (reaching, I know, but leather is pretty heavy... no idea on alcantara) Hmmm... Leather vs Alcantara plus Glass vs Lexan plus Extinguisher... no, that's still not 156 lbs.

Actually, gasoline weighs 6 lbs/gallon (well, it can vary from 5.8 to 6.5) and a 360 holds 25.1gal of gas, so 151 pounds of gasoline. (Again, where does Ferrari get their numbers? They have 25.1 gal of fuel weighing a staggering 100kg (220lbs)! )

So, the owner's manual weight without fuel is 2849lbs versus the sales literature quote of 2601lbs. Sheesh. Such BS! Not to mention that even the owner's manual weight is low.

Obviously, it can't even come close. Worse, I doubt seriously it can do the Ferrari-quoted 3.5s faster at Fiorano. It might weigh 90 lbs less and maybe 25hp more... but that's no 3.5s. Sure, half of that 90 lbs might be unsprung weight, which is worth a lot... but still, that's not 3.5s. Such BS!


Sorry... I'm a tad irked... I hate being lied to... I'll get over it... next week.

 

"The claimed curb weight in the owner’s manual of the CS is 3000 lb"

Still relatively light compared to today's sports cars, but a lot more than the Geneva show brochure claimed kerb weight of 1280 kg/2822 lb. I had thought about ordering the car without a/c, and now wish that I had.

 

Brian -

My guess is much of the 3.5 sec advantage would come from the Corsa tires...although even with Corsas the CS didn't pull as many skidpad g's as the GT3 on Michelin Pilot Sports (I'm going from memory, that's right isn't it?) in C&D, and wasn't any faster on the road course. I've read good reports on the Corsas elsewhere, perhaps the set on the C&D car were cooked? Too many heat cycles and these soft tires just die.

Gary

 

Possibly... though I've yet to see Pirellis that were even half as good as their hype.

Yep... got smoked... and by a rear-engine car... bit embarrassing.

Yep... and if the Stradale really had R tires on while the GT3 had street tires, then the GT3 is a 2-3s faster car! Though other magazines have put a bigger margin in favor of the Stradale.

Perhaps... but they say they went through, what was it, eight sets of tires... so, I wonder if they were replacing them with new Corsas? Given the impact of tires, it always amazes me when an article doesn't bother to mention what tires each car had... definitely shows their lack of any car expertise.

 

Brian you are a bitter man - my suggestion for remedy is to drive the Stradale – I quoted the exact owner’s manual number

I think we have messed up some numbers: - weight Modena is 3234lb, the weight for the CS without fuel was my calculation based on 30 US gallons, …)

Here is a quick reset to summarize the numbers:

........................................Stradale .........................Modena
Marketing Numbers
----------------------------
Curb weight with fuel...........1280kg....2816lb..................-.............-
Curb weight without fuel.......1180kg....2596lb..................-.............-
Fuel ...................................100kg.....220lb..................-.............-

Owner’s Manual
----------------------------
Curb weight with fuel ...........1360kg....3000kg............1470kg....3234lb

Measured
----------------------------
Curb weight with fuel............1404kg.....3096lb............?kg..........?lb

1.) Marketing vs. OM
The 80kg/184lb difference is significant, but that is marketing. I first though that it could be the A/C but I would be surprised if it is more than 40lb? One could argue that they talked about a race prepared car (no tools, etc) - but it does not add up.

2.) OM: CS vs Modena
This shows the weight saving of the CS over the Modena claimed by Ferrari – its on paper – however one thing that adds up.

3.) Measured vs. OM
44kg / 96lb difference is a lot. No idea what the reason is. I have the Alcantara interior. Only addition is the fire extinguisher. The scales might be off but by over 3%???

I hope someone can measure a Modena. I hope that will get us back to the weight saving claimed by Ferrari.

 

don't forget the carbon brakes - they have hugh stopping power and should fade less

 

Not bitter... just very disappointed. I want a 2800# 360!

Not according to my Owner's Manual! Right in front of me, in black and white, it says curb weight with fuel is 3086lbs. Where do you get your number for the Modena?

A/C is standard; more likely, part of it is Lexan windows... but I wouldn't think they weigh 184lb. If they do, then I sure wish they'd have given us old-fashioned crank windows with a Lexan instead of glass. Maybe that they could have gotten through DOT.

If it is all due to the glass and power motors, then that is good in a way... I can fix it! I'm not hauling around 184# in glass!

Not per my OM! We're only 86lbs apart here, which is 148lbs off!

I like the idea of scales being off! I'll pin my hopes there.

Sigh,

Brian

 

it is the PDF file of the owner manual - downloaded form the Ferrari owner site

right in front of me US Modena MY 2003

curn weight 3240lb (1470Kg)

 

Fade resistance will only become a factor after at least several laps. As long as you have enough braking power to invoke abs with the steel brakes, carbon brakes have no real advantage in stopping distance. Presumably the best lap times would be measured before any fade occurred with the steel brakes. The carbon brakes weigh less, so there is also a small lap time advantage with the weight difference, especially since it's unsprung weight, but I still think the biggest factor is the tire.

Gary

 

Interesting. Soooo... either:

1) the 360 got heavier (per the OM) in successive years (mine is MY2000)

2) Euros are lighter than US models (mine is a Euro)


I'd do this myself except the Ferrari manuals are Windows-only... and I'm on a Mac right now...

Can someone look at the various manuals and report:
1) curb weight in a 2000 Euro manual (to check online vs. real)
2) curb weight in a 2003 Euro manual (to check #2 above)
3) curb weight in a 2000 US manual (to check #1 above)

Thanks!

 

Currently, Ferrari North America website shows curb weight for the 360 at 3064 lbs. They show "dry weight" 2843 lbs.

Gary

 

Euro 3086lb (1400kg)
US 3240lb (1470kg)

the US versions have all the same weight

70kg for the emission stuff and maybe bumpers?

shhh - I buy a Modena Euro for less and get the same weight as my CS

anyhow US conversion will add the stuff back in again I assume

I think we have it solved now - marketing data uses Euro weight

 

OMG FINALLY somebody gets it!!! I just hate it when people get in a car that's had bigger brakes fitted and rave about how much shorter the braking distance is. Everybody please note, the limiting factor in stopping distance is tyre grip! (until you get fade) OK??

 

Interesting! I'll definitely weigh mine this week... gotta find a scale.

Can one of you European Stradale owners take a look at your owner's manual and let us know what it lists as curb weight with fuel??

I don't think the bumpers are different. There is some added emissions stuff, but it would have to be solid gold to be 70kg! Hmmm... I think its time to spend an hour with my parts manual.

Yeah, in my case, I may not be getting any lighter... gotta go weigh my car!

 

Brian,

Here's a little tidbit for you:

Car & Driver, 11/99, 1999 360 Modena: 3241 lbs. with full fuel load

Car & Driver, 09/00, 2000 360 Modena: 3291 lbs. with full fuel load

The car gained 50 lbs. in one model year, tested on the same scale with a full tank of gas. The 99 car was quite a bit quicker to 150: 2.5 seconds. It's very possible the car has gained even more weight for the 2003 m/y. Car & Driver compared the weight of the 03 Stradale to the 00 360 and it was 139 lbs. lighter.


BTW Thomas,

At what rpm does your rev-limiter cut in ?


Paul