Are us dumb Americans are getted ripped off for service ?

Hi all.

This is certainly an interesting thread. Some things I can get away with saying here and some I cannot

It is a fact that there quite a few UK independant Ferrari repairers advertising very, almost ridiculously cheap cam belt changes. To take 355 as an example, the book says that you have to take the engine out to do this job. Some of these repairers don't; Apparently there is a way of doing it by (I think) removing the fuel tank and becoming a contorsionist ! Naturally this does not give him the chance to check for leaks, change other parts and make the job nice. If you put up with this sort of work then you are in the wrong car !

The average non-dealer hourly rate is between the £45 and £60 region, that's about $72 to $96. A fully franchised dealer will be about £85 or $136.

I know of a few non-authorised repairers to whom I would not take a Dodge Omni ! (Talbot Horizon over here !) but there are some very well known independants who have excellent reputations of course.

Remember, you can keep the cost of Classic or older Ferrari ownership down by buying all your parts from Ferrari UK Apologies to the US owner of later cars - I guess we'll get to those when we're allowed.

We'll ship overnight for as little as $18 and you know we will listen to you.

Regards

 

Yeah, I heard it from a mechanic that actually works in a UK based dealer too.....fuel tank out etc etc

I asked him how long it took, and without rubbing his face in it, he is pissing into the wind....he takes longer than I have done several...and how on earth does he get the new cambelt past the crank pulley without undoing it....he MUST damage it, as the gap is smaller than the belt, and at an awkward angle to force it past.

Cambelt only services (meaning Engine oil, coolant, brake and clutch fluid, and AC gas recycle), can be done easily within 20 hours on a basically good car...sometimes much less, also depending spec.

Be vary wary of fixed price offers....somebody is going to lose out on it...and if it's the service centre...they'll cut corners to meet the price.

So far, I've based all my work on mutual trust...it's lasted since 1987 with no law suits!

 

The FNA dealer network in the US are nothing short of thieves....and they can be incompetent. When I did the major on my TR and 348 myself I was into it for about $1200-$1500 in overcharged parts....and the service took me about 30-40 hours each in my spare time.

When I had Ferrari of Scottsdale do a major on my TR...they hit me for $5300......
they routed the throttle cable wrong..costing me more
they neglected 1/2 of the hoses...costing me more
they neglected the water pump(after they charged me for servicing it)...which failed and ended up costing me an extra $8K


Do it yourself...you learn about your car and it gets done right....without the Ferrari Dealer attitude.

Ciao....Dino

 

I love the idea of doing a major service myself, what I dont like is if something goes wrong afterward even though everything was done right. Its still nice to be able to point the finger at the repair facility to take responsibility. S**t happens even when tender loving care is used.

 

Take your time and do it right. S**t only happens when you get in a hurry or don't use your head. I've never had the egg get into the fan on any of my vehicles. When I find things not going to my satisfaction, I just walk away and work on it another day.

With the money I've saved, a whole lot could go wrong before the balance would even up. The chance of that happening is slim.

Plus, you have people on this list who know these cars well and are willing to help. Then there is the satisfaction you derive from doing the job yourself.

 

I think Ferrari makes only 4,000 per year, 3,000 V8s and 1,000 V12s (Maserati notwithstanding).

 

I have a money-making idea for those few brave individuals who claim they have done their own Ferrari major service successfully.

Why not create a "how-to" video (or burn a CD) outlining step-by-step with photos how to do a major service on a 308/328/348/355 Ferrari??

It doesn't have to be a major production, even a flat file with photos is good enough for more people....Why not??? There are several sites on the web offering similar services (how to build replica cars is one example that comes to mind) by ordinary folks with basic mechanical knowledge....The FerrariChat archieves are very helpfull when it comes to troubleshouting/fixing minor problems but there's nothing detailed on major service.

We're all complaining about the sky-high costs of servicing our cars at the dealers. Why not start doing something about that?? You know the service costs will keep going higher and some hard to find parts can cost a fortune. There's a great pool of technical expertise on Ferraris in this forum. Why not use this collective knowledge to benefit the membership??

I for one, will be willing to pay $$ to someone who can provide technical information on how to do a Ferrari major service....I'm sure others will be willing to pay for the same service. I realize it's time consuming to create something worthwhile and do it right, but think about the potential rewards (financial and otherwise).

Just food for thought.......Vasilis K.

 

Interesting thread to post my first post to!

In reference to what Ferrari UK and ferrarifixer have said I am sorry I totally disagree. I have a 1996 355 GTS which I have owned from new. I without fail used to take it to my local Ferrari authorised main dealer for everything- and I mean everything- wheel refurbs, stone chips etc and of course all services. However after my first cambelt service there in 1999 (at a cost of over £3000) I decided to stop using them. Why? Because after that cambelt service my car drove appallingly bad. The gearbox would not engage first gear properly at all which as you might expect was very problematic. I of course took it back to them and they corrected the problem (which was a hassle in itself) and the cause of the problem was as I had predicted- by removing the engine the gearbox synchros had been altered for the worse.

SO I started to think to myself is it entirely necessary to remove the engine for this service? It must be if Ferrari say so- BUT that is where the misinformation lies. Ferrari UK and ferrarifixer being who you are and working for who you do- you must have access to the Official Ferrari Workshop manuals and Service schedules on CD right? I assume you do so have a look at operation code 1.2.28.0 for the F355 M 2.7/5.2 engine. You will see that that particular code states “Tensioner bearing, timing belt- replace one with (IN CAR)” and that is the important thing IN CAR. The official Ferrari time for this operation is 7.4 hours for “complete removal and replacement of all parts concerning the replacement”. So you see to remove and replace the cambelts on the F355 Ferrari THEMSELVES say it can be done (IN CAR)- Who was the source of this information to me? Karl at Verdi -a well known independent in London- which is where I got my last cambelt service done in 2002. I decided to go there after being recommended by a friend who was also surprised at the revelation from Ferrari RE cambelt changes. Karl himself gave me a printout of the operation code from the official Ferrari Service Schedule which is from where I have quoted the above from today. He told me that a lot of his customers, like me didn’t believe that it could be done by the fuel tank removal method (Ferrari F355 Official operation code 1.4.36.0 for Ferrari UK and ferrarifixer). He invited me if I was unsure still to watch his mechanics perform the whole cambelt service from start to finish- I declined I had seen enough to be totally satisfied. The car came back to me running beautifully and MOST importantly with a bill of less than half the amount I had paid at my local Ferrari main dealer.

UK owners will also know that Maranello Sales have dropped the price of a cambelt removal and replacement service to £1400 + VAT recently and I am sure they aren’t making a loss by doing so- so it just goes to show what some healthy competition can do! Well done Karl and the boys at Verdi!

So gentleman rather than listening to hearsay lets just please deal with the facts and facts in this case are from the Manufacturer themselves.

Regards,

Knight

 

And ....are us dumb Australians getting ripped off for service ?
You can substitute any country into the equation and you will get the same answer. It is up to the individual Ferrari owner to do his (or her) homework and pick the Ferrari specialist they most trust . The best way to do this is to join the local Ferrari Owners Club, start asking questions and if possible, be willing to do some work on your Ferrari yourself. And of course communicate with all the friendly "Ferrarichat" people.

 

Nice post knight. It would be nice if we could do the same with the 348 by removing the gas tank. However unlike the 355, the 348 doesn't have two cam belts, so this isn't an opition for 348 owners. I am curious as to how the synchros would have gotten messed up by removing the engine? Also what did they do to fix the problem?

 

Ernie, my mistake - when I said synchros, I was rather loosly referring to a misaligned gear linkage when the engine was put back in - a typical problem from poor engine out services.
Also you'll find that the 348 price for a cambelt service is the same as a 355 - the labour and hence time involved is the same. The fact that there is one cambelt makes no difference at all. So you can easily do a quality cambelt service IN SITU - as per Ferraris own instructions

 

As an author who has written a few books on Porsches & BMWs (http://www.101projects.com), I have thought of this idea. Creating a sort of electronic project book for the 308s would not be too difficult. Perhaps in a few years I would get around to tackling this idea. I figure to make it worth it, it would have to be a CD-ROM, and would cost around $99 or so. It would probably include 30-50 articles with about 3000-5000 photos (actually would probably be more than one CD).

-Wayne

 

Wayne,

If you can come up with something like you describe on a CD-ROM format, I for one, will be willing to pay double your asking price for such invaluable information....Think about it very seriously. There's a need for usefull technical information within the Ferrari community. I'm sure the FNA dealers or the private Ferrari service centers won't like this idea very much.

Take the Ferrari factory Parts manuals, for example, which show up on eBay every so often. Their asking prices range from $300 - $700 for a specific model car and they're only parts manuals....A "how-to" manual, video or CD with photos can fetch at least that much, if not more...If I had access to a lift and the right tools for the job I would have done it myself....I love working on my cars and despite what most people think, working on a Ferrari is no different than working on a Porsche or BMW. Having the right information (factory manuals) while doing the job is a major difference in my opinion. Of course experience in another factor while working on any car, but a "how-to" manual takes the guesswork out of the equation and provides direction to those of us who are willing to service our cars.

Vasilis K.

 

YES YES YES!!! You can screw up your car for a LOT less money than your mechanic!! I've saved a ton on my car since I "fired" my mechanic last year. I learned how to time my engine, bleed my brakes, replace some electrics, other basic stuff. Next is rebuilding the carbs. And if I get stuck, my mechanic is still there. So dive in!

Ken

 

Now if everybody that was capable of performing maintainence on their vehicles did, there would be another 5 million people out of work (minimum).

So, you have to ask yourself what is my time worth? In my case it is more that the cost to have someone else service my car. Your case may be different.

But remember, the mechanics have to feed their families, cover overhead, save for retirement, and pay taxes and licensing fees just like everyone else.

The prices Ferrari charges for basic stuff is the only real outrage going on here. And with these prices, comes additional overhead that the mechanick has to 'eat' so that he/she can service you car quickly.

 

"Why not create a "how-to" video (or burn a CD) outlining step-by-step with photos how to do a major service on a 308/328/348/355 Ferrari?? "

Because it would be very expensive to produce,
and you would not re-coop your invested time or money...

Lets face the facts, people take their Ferrari to be serviced because
A: their time is worth more than it would cost to have someone else perform the work, "economics"...
If I earn $240.00 an hour, and the shop charges $70.00 an hour for labor, it would cost more for me to service the car...
or B: they do not posses the skills or tools needed to perform the job.

Just the differences between the 308 series cars alone could drive a man to drink, GT4, GTB, GTS, I, QV...

I have thought about producing a DVD that would highlight a particular series Ferrari, for example the 308 series start to finish showing all the differences between the years, with performance figures, different exhaust systems, services secrets and so forth,
but found that there were very few people that would but it.
Selling 68 DVDs will not pay for the production costs involved with a task like this.
Don't get me wrong, I own all of the equipment needed to produce something like this, including a state of the art digital edit suite.
And would love to do it, but financially it would be a disaster.

 

>If I earn $240.00 an hour, and the shop charges $70.00 an hour for >labor, it would cost more for me to service the car...

There would be few things one would do (what?), if the same formula was applied to all aspects of life. Ie., some people would service their
personal automobiles irrespective of time, economy etc, for a cornucopia of reasons, eg. control and pleasure. (pointing a finger is not exactly an attribute).

Pleasure may evaporate over time, much as it has for a professional mechanic (may explain why select ones are shysters).

I am in accord with you, but for different reasons.
There are more meaningful things in life than controlling nuts and bolts. Understanding how the nuts and bolts interact to create a whole is pleasant, yes, but
overall, it consists of mostly explicit knowledge, which isn't exactly a neural treat once tasted.

 

Yes Mercedes are taxi's in mainland Europe but its rubbish to say that Ferrari's are everywhere (unless you live in Maranello or Monaco), and the only people that want a Viper or Corvette also own every episode of Knight Rider on video. (The Corvette was briefly listed for sale in the UK a couple of years ago and was withdrawn due to lack of interest. I think they sold 35 Vipers in the UK a couple of years ago.)

 

To put the record straight regarding replacing cambelts on 355, the official recommendation by Ferrari is to remove the engine (see copy of text taken from workshop manual). By removing the engine the cambelts can be replaced easilly, but also it gives the technician who's working on the car a good chance to look around the engine and other ancillaries and report any defects to the owner. It also is a good opportunity to clean the engine bay, the gearbox & engine / suspension assembly units.

However it is a well known fact that by removing the fuel tank and "manouvering the engine" the belts can be replaced in situ. This is not the recommended way for this service operation which is why the manual says remove the engine.

Official dealers will and should only perform repairs in accordance with the manufacturers instructions which is why when quoting for cambelt replacement they are generally higher than "others" quoting for the same repair, but doing the repair in a way not approved by the manufacturer.




MW

 

Knight man

I don't doubt people have and can, replaced their belts in situ......but I still say I can do a better job cheaper and quicker than someone pulling fuel tanks out and fighting the front pulley bolt in a 20mm gap.

Checking timing marks accurately and ensuring generally good working practices is also VERY hard when straining for access.

The simple act of fitting seals, gaskets and bearings in a properly clean accessible way to ensure no leaks or drama's is enough to convince most discerning owners to do it the "right way"

besides...I dont like going home at night after having fuel running up to my armpit early in the day with no means of cleaning myself because the extra time taken would cancel out what I had just gained......

ask yourself when doing it next time......am I really doing this the right way??

Ask again when the customer comes back complaining of something that you may have noticed but didn't when you did your short cut (which isn't anyway when going on a time factor...it's just less nuts and bolts, that's all)

 

ferrarifixer- I am not knocking you for removing the engine for a cambelt service all I am saying is it is not necessary. And it isn't according to Ferrari. With regards to checking for leaks etc when the engine is out I really do NOT believe that justifies the extra expense incurred by this process. And I will explain why:

When you take the car for a major service (18k) service without cambelts the engine isn't removed. You wouldnt remove the engine because there may be leaks! The engine isnt removed for any other purpose other than an engine rebuild or according to you guys cambelts. So by not removing the engine and using the fuel tank removal method doesnt mean you are not changing the cambelts properly does it?

If people are happy to pay extra for engine removal thats entirely up to them. And I believe they are paying extra for an unnecessary operation because the end result is exactly the same- the cambelts were removed and replaced. Some of us will pay £800 for this, whilst others will pay double or more. Its like going on a long journey would you take the quickest route or the route that made the journey 3-4 times longer? I have friends with concourse winning F355s that will rather jump off a cliff than have their engines removed for a routine cambelt service when they do only 1000 miles a year. They dont wont the setup of the engine altered and the reliable good running of their car compromised for an unnecessary operation!

And with regards to fuel running down your arm and good working practices that is not my concern. That is what I pay my mechanic for! If he has to strain a bit and his hands get dirty, forgive me if I don't break down in tears for him!

Regards,

Knight

 

For those who get the cam belt serviced with the engine in the engine bay:

How did you check the cam timing? How did you refurbish the water pump? How did you replace the cam seals? How did you get at and replace all those plastic and rubber hoses that often leak things at inopportune points in time? How did you check the headers for impending failure?

 

Knight man

You seem to be convinced it is CHEAPER to do it with tanks out. I thought the discussion was about possibility and practicality.

I still reckon I could do it as quick in terms of labour.......

I also would NOT put any undue strain on the exhaust system and cooling/oil plumbing by forcing it as the engine is being "manipulated" with big bars and jacks, into position in order to gain access to the front pulley bolt....

I also would not need to remove the alternator to replace the (oh so often) slack/noisy alt belt tensioner bearing......

I WILL get the cam timing perfect...first go, every time.

I WILL be adjusting the handbrake as part of the re-install, you need to pay extra for that if you take tanks out....as goes for fluids and so many other "service items" etc etc

I WILL be checking and adjusting the gear selection set up as part of the install.....

you see......what are you really saving???

You can probably get a guy to do it for cash on a weekend and do nothing else...and save a few bucks....maybe you could pick up some second hand tyres at the same place.....

I just think that NOBODY wins doing it the short cut way...the owner gets a half job, the mechanic gets a half job, Ferrari get a worsened reputation because the maintenance is not kept up properly and things eventually surface that may have otherwise been averted.

 

Mitch,

The answer is they don't - not only that, but I have seen cars that have had the belts changed in situ and some, not all of them look like the mechanic has had to struggle in changing the belts - not a professional job.

MW

 

I have just been give the answers to all your questions by a well known Ferrari mechanic.

By the reference marks put on by the factory on the cam covers and the pulleys.

Remove and replace IN CAR- official Ferrari operation code 1.7.01.2

These can be done at the same time when the belts are being changed IN CAR.

Which hoses are these? So what you are saying is you have to remove the engine to change hoses now???!!!!!

?????? YOU DO NOT NEED TO REMOVE THE ENGINE FOR THIS!!!!!!!!


Is your mechanics solution for everything remove the engine?? Does the engine come out to check the water and oil levels???

REMEMBER ALL OFFICIAL OPERATION CODES ARE WHAT YOU ARE ACTUALLY CHARGED FOR- THESE TIME FRAMES ARE WHAT ARE USED TO BILL YOU!

Regards,

Knight