The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Thank you, Art ....
It's a shame really to get some encouragement at this late stage, because I'm just about to give up the (losing battle). O.K., so the gearbox is ex-F1 and there are other things I can possibly prove, but then I'm getting to the stage where I'm thinking, why am I wasting my time posting, only to be constantly shouted down by Jim's Tifosi ?

I have just recieved an email from an old acquaintance, a noted U.K. Ferrari historian, whom I had asked to 'sanity' check some of the most recent threads.

He wrote:
'Paul
my feeling is that you're right - but will never convince everyone. To misquote a famous saying - "give me the strength to change the things I can change - the patience to endure the things I can't change - and the wisdom to know the difference"
I think 'Big Jim' shot himself in the foot when he said that Piper sold him the chassis but didn't claim that it was 0846. Are you telling me that the world's greatest living authority on P4s (Piper, not Skett) didn't know which chassis he had? I don't think so.
You've done your bit - one day, someone else will pick it up.'

Sorry - but I've had too many (wasted) late nights recently, and I'm going to take his advice .... Over to you Jim. Post away .....

 

P4Replica,

I agree with your Ferrari Historian acquaintance about picking your battles. I think the 'Tifosi's' point is the time for the debate has not yet arrived. When Jim shows his full hand, the academics can give or withhold their blessing and we can debate the merits of the case. Under no circumstance will everyone be convinced either way. That's the nature of a car with "stories."

Until then this not a battle worth having. That said, I am interested in the knowledge and history you are willing to share.

Regards,

Art S.

 

Well you were close, Paul .... and looking at the correct photo, too, probably .....
Try looking either side of the 'Prova MO' plate, (which before you tell me is on the wrong side of the car, and the wrong number - it should be Prova MO-159 for the #24 Daytona car - I know ....)
Try genuine Ferrari 250 Lusso (Altissimo) tail-lights. Most P4 replicas use the Fiat 850 Coupe/Simca 1100 Carello units, with the oblong reflector. A little extravagance of mine. And yes I was being facetious (as always ....)

 

Relax P4, nobody is questioning that you know a great deal about P4's. The over riding perception I get is that we're all firmly in 'lets wait and see' mode. Attacking someone elses assertions is an exercise in frustration, and you're now clearly frustrated. It's not for us, or you, to decide who's right and who's wrong, indeed, it's probably not even a matter of right and wrong.

 

I see more of Jim's 'Tifosi' are 'contributing' to the thread again. See posts #91 and #92. Yet this sort of thing (as with NNO) is allowed to go on. So. I'll leave you guys to get on with it. In the (two) words of Steve McQueen .....

 

The third 330 P3 which does not have ran they are not 0848 but 0850 then 0854 which is two 330 P3 never assembled they was used as car of reserve and which were assembled directly in configuration 412 P. the 330 P3 #0844 and #0848 was born 330 P3 and evolved into 330 P3/412 P, #0850 and #0854 directly were born into 412 P. Of course the 330 P3 #0846 evolved in 330 P3/P4. For better distinguished the models which evolve during their life in competition I proceed like Christian Huet, I place in first the type of origin in first followed its following configuration, #0844 example: born 330 P3 in 1966 then evolved in 1967 into 330 P3/412 P.


#0844 : 330 P3 -> 330 P3/412 P -> 330 P3/412 P Can-Am
#0848 : 330 P3 -> 330 P3/412 P
#0846 : 330 P3 -> 330 P3/P4

#0850 : 412 P
#0854 : 412 P

 

Piper's not talking; surely you don't think you're the first person to come up with that idea, do you...?


Hey, Skett, the more you post, the more i find you to be very rough-edged snob; my "interjections" from last night...? Excuse me, i'm so sorry, i wasn't aware that i had to let you post, "uninterrupted", and that i couldn't voice my lowly opinion... Jim doesn't have any "Tifosi"; Jim has friends... Lots and lots of really nice friends who stick up for each other... As you'll see, no one is sitting here saying things like: "Paul, get outta here, Jim has 0846 and that's all there is to it!" The general concensus is more geared towards waiting for everything to play out rather than cast mindless, meaningless opinions on an internet chat forum poll... You've asked MANY questions throughout this thread and other threads and you know what...? That's perfectly fine... It's when you get accusatory, condescending and downright rude when "Jim's Tifosi" come out of the woodwork...

Lastly, i see you've got some "tifosi" of your own... Folks that have just magically appeared and started posting since you arrived to this site... You should get your U.K. acquaintance to jump on the Phoenix 4 bandwagon...

 

Yes, correct, French.
That is the point that I made the mistake (on #0848) in the earlier post (which Paul Macca corrected me on).
I do have all this information on P2's/P3's/P4's/412P's and 350 Can-Am's listed on Excel spreadsheets (as an aide-memoire), by chassis #, event, race #; colour schemes; drivers; results, etc. .....
Like I said, last night I was tired, and posted from memory - at a time when I really should have checked the spreadsheets first ....

PS - Yes the Christian Huet (Cavelleria #11) P3/412P is excellent reference. No doubt you recognise the photos of #0848's gearbox, that I 'borrowed'. The data sections at the back of the book are extremely useful too.
IMHO, this is a far better book than the Paolo Marasca 330P4 volume and much better value for money, too !

 

Like I said Carbon. Post away. You're on ignore, as far as I'm concerned ....

 

LOL, that makes perfect sense...! Ask millions of questions and be brash and rude, but when someone confronts YOU, put them on ignore. Hmmm... Seems to me someone lacks vertibrae...

 

Nah. Just hates repetition ....

 

Im sure you angry auto geniuses wont be interested, but a couple of you others wanted to come and see my car. It returns from South Africa at the end of the month, So if it is of interest then it will be about for a short time in June.

 

Now the tone of this thread seems a bunch friendlier now than it was for a while there.

I have not seen JG' s car but he has been kind enough to tell me a thing or two about his investigation. Those things are very interesting indeed and I hope the questions that have floated around here are answered.

But like any of the other threads (example with the F40 prototype thread in Supercars) It is up to the owner to decide what he wants to place in this forum.

The overall tone replica's posts seemed to my eye to be coming from an accusatory angle. This is how I interpreted them and I know how many others did as well.

As with any "Family" as Fchat has become for many of us, when you hit a tender nerve of accusing Family of things (or as interpreted as accusing) there is a tendency to circle the wagons and start shooting.

As a fan of these things you should appreciate how deep the passions run on obsessions. These cars have become obsessions for many. Due in part to the fact that many of them are simply beyond the abilities of ownership to almost everyone out there. After all if there wasn't a note of obsession i don't think you would have spent the time and money to deal with your Moody.

Have some patience and after all the experiences Jim has been nice enough to post here I am sure he will share more, in HIS good time.

 

P4Replica, don't go away mad. As I said before, I totally understand your logical questioning of the murky history of 0846. There is one point that continues to resurface occassionally in these threads.
If Piper knew that one of his chassis were the positive conclusive remains of P4 Ferrari number 0846, why did he sell it for less than the millions of dollars that it was worth? Of course we don't know what Jim paid for the package, but as you said in post number 48 of the P4 gearbox thread,

"I think 'Big Jim' shot himself in the foot when he said that Piper sold him the chassis but didn't claim that it was 0846. Are you telling me that the world's greatest living authority on P4s (Piper, not Skett) didn't know which chassis he had? I don't think so."

http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=67293630#post67293630

I'm not blasting Jim or his car, but if Piper sold the chassis and never claimed that it was 0846, then it becomes very difficult to start claiming that it is 0846 "after the fact". But as we know, Jim has never claimed that it "IS" 0846. He has just said that it contains many parts "from" 0846. But as all the Ferrarista know, as the years go by, the provenance for the car will tend to lean toward it actually "BEING" 0846.

And once again, exactly WHO are these mysterious Ferrari experts whose opinions mean more than some of the knowledgable people on this board, like LWayne, Gerald Roush, "Old Man" and others???? Is there something politically incorrect about even actually mentioning who these experts are?

 

By the way paul

Darth (post 92) was referring to Horsefly (Arlie) so...

 

My apologies; i should've specified that Piper's not talking PUBLICLY... It would be awesome to have him come here and post, however, i'm not sure if that would make matters better or worse considering i highly doubt he would publicly post any of the pertinent information that Ferrari might ask him for in the future... In any case, tell Piper we all say hello... i, for one, am glad he's alive... (Inside joke; up until a few months ago, i was erroneously informed that he had passed.)

 

P4Replica, just in case you were mistakenly thinking that I was busting your chops with my cartoon parody further down the page, I wasn't. And just to prove that your skepticism is not new, here's a link to a post that I myself made a year and a half ago. http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/251280/162464.html#POST110294

I come from a long time spent researching Corvettes and their sometimes murky documentation. As such, I am familiar with cars built from scraps that, after their restoration, suddenly, mysteriously start to obtain legitimacy, not so much do to their factual heritage, but due to the circles that their wealthy owners move in. As I have said before, if Joe Smith restores a car from a pile of scraps, it's just a replica mongrel not worthy of respect. If Sir Lord Snobbingham restores the same car from a pile of scraps, it's plastered across the slick pages of Car Snob Monthly and the big money offers start rolling in as everybody stands around drinking wine and lavishing praise on this latest greatest automotive glory. Double standard.

 

Sorry but who exactly are Jim's tifosis??? ......I for one has never ever met James , or have had any talks with him ..........and still I think that you are not in a position to judge what it is exactly that James has bought! What are your proofs and what is your mission??? Most important.... WHY??? Obviously you are not hoping for #0846 to be found..... very much the contrary to the rest of the users on F-chat! That is what seperates the socalled "Jim's Tifosis"/ real enthusiasts from you! Nothing has been solved or proven yet, so why do you start to run this mission against automotive history in the writing! It seems nothing will ever change your mind and frankly I think that nobody cares........

 

Well, we do have Max Wakefield weighing in on the gearbox thread, who says he's got Piper's ear on this, so I think we are close to having everyone together at the same time!! LOL

Max has graciously invited us all to look at his car. Is that one 0900A???

I'm still not voting on this thread, though!!!!

Speedy308 for President!!!

 

I'm voting Speedy308 for President!

 

My vote goes to you speedy............ LOL

Greetings
Carsten

 

Well, not quite true. I care. I will find it very interesting if, and when, anybody with official standing ever actually comes out and says definitively that Jim's car IS 0846 with no strings attached. From everything that Jim and others have posted, I for one do not see this ever happening. What's gone is gone, and no amount of restoration, replication, or retro-dreaming will ever undo the effects of time. I've got an original 1957 Corvette frame and an original 1957 Corvette body that came from an original fuel injected car. And when I finally restore this combination of parts, will it be an original 1957 fuel injected Corvette? Of course not. The frame is from one car that was never fuel injected; the body from a different car that was fuel injected. I KNOW this. And the passage of time will never change that. It doesn't matter if the car was raced, parts replaced, etc, etc. The car is, and always will be, a hack job. AND that's even with a frame that is completely intact with the original serial number still stamped in place. Imagine what people would think if only part of the original frame was still intact. The car would be an even lower grade mongrel. That's why my car will be worth $20,000 and an original will be worth $50,000 or more. The truth hurts, but that's life.

 

@Horsefly, Only thing I stated was that I frankly thought that nobody cared weather P4Replica's mind would ever change!!!!.. Please quote me another time......but please then do it the proper way...thanks

Greetings

Carsten

 

is it possible that Piper didn't think there were enough parts in Jim's car to make it the definitive 0846?
Who cares?
Jim will never be able to convince everyone its real, and it will never command the sort of price it might if it had been locked in a vault after it last raced, but will always command more than a P4 replica made clearly of non-P4 parts.