The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Thanks Jim, this is the only true approach.

 

To help clarify what it takes to "certify" a vehicle through Ferrari the current issue of CAVALLINO (April/May) has a comprehensive overview of the process in "NOTIZIE" ... "The Past is Future, The Future is Past." This article also shows the "Authenticity Criteria." (Some information may have changed by now as some questions regarding the process may be under review.)

Registered owners may view similar information at www.owners.ferrari.com

Sounds to me like we are pushing around a rope with much of this discussion as the only one who can meanifully question whether the vehicle is "the real #0846" is "Jim" (quotes as I don't know him) and the only answer to his question that really matters will come from Ferrari.

Best wishes

 

The only contemporary photograph clearly showing the gearbox of a 1966 P3 without a spare tyre in the way is one of 0844 being unveiled at Maranello on page 324 of 'Ferrari Sports-Racing & Prototype Competition Cars' by Antoine Prunet.

Clear pictures of the 1966 F1 Ferrari gearbox (before they hung coils and a battery on it) are in 'Road & Track' (USA) for March 1966, page 39, and 'Autocar' (UK) of 25th February 1966, pages 369 and 371.

The 1967 F1 gearbox, as posted by P4Replica in post #14, can be seen more clearly in 'Cavallino' #59 p32, 'F1 Ferrari' by Schlegelmilch (the small one) p572, and 'Ferrari' by Tanner/Nye (6th edition) p184.........and also in a lot of my collection from Goodwood and Silversone in recent years. It has even more stuff hung on it, and the 1968 version has extra stiffening ribs on the casing.

The gearbox of the P3 looks very similar to the 1966 F1 car, but has a different backplate and more bolts on the top. The gearbox in the pictures of Jim's car IS identical in appearance to a P3.

Although it has always been said that the P3 used a ZF gearbox, the one on 0844 in early 1966 doesn't appear to look like that in the GT40, for instance, or like the ZF F1 gearboxes which were used in the 1965 F1 Lotus 33-Climax and 1967 Lotus 49-Cosworth; I believe that Ferrari cast their own casing but used a ZF gear-cluster inside.

Paul

 

Well.....you could ask your friend David Piper, when you keep him posted on the new threads that crop up???? I suppose he should know....but what do I know?.......... just trying to be of help

Greetings

Carsten

 

I agree with your friend!

I believe that the quote that your friend mentioned is:

"God, Grant me the Serenity to Accept the things I cannot change;
The courage to change the things I can; and the Wisdom to know the difference."

As I mentioned in your earlier thread regarding this particular vehicle there is a process that, if there is an application made, will determine the fate of the subject automobile. And, with that thread, I provided some information that may allow all to view some of the particulars that must be met in the journey to establish "what" the subject vehicle is or is not.

The discussion regarding the type of gearbox, etc., is interesting: but, there may be a more appropriate way to ask that question without insinuating that there may be some effort by someone to deceive us all. Imagine how much of a give-a-s**t Ferrari lends to my opinion regarding the authenticity of any of their products that I do not own. The answer to that rhetorical question is: None.

If application is made, and Ferrari renders a decision ... the argument is over!

Discuss the gearbox in general terms such as: Here's a picture of a gearbox. Is it a F1 or P4 gearbox: but, otherwise, please heed the above prayer ... don't want you to give yourself a stroke over something you have no control over.

Best wishes

 

Andrew
Upon reflection I agree with your characterization of Ferrari S.P.A.'s actions to date. As they say at The Bar: "Res ipsa loquitur".
The same of course hold's true for David Piper's written declarations and warrants. They speak for themselves as well and even though I believe that at the time he made them he believed they were true I'm not disappointed to find that regarding my chassis there's a bit more to it than that.
Best

 

Model builder said:

"As I think you're aware engine blocks in vettes are stamped with the VIN number. Even the race cars had stamped blocks as many were street cars converted for off road use. I beleive GM had to do that as a matter of law."

Not true. GM did NOT stamp the VIN on all its engine blocks. One would have to specify a more exact time frame to qualify that statement, but Chevrolet stamped the VIN on Corvette engine blocks and Corvette transmissions. Regular cars did not have the VIN stamped on the transmission case. I once tracked down a '66 Corvette owner after I found a 4 speed transmission case with a Corvette VIN stamped on it. The local DMV helped with the rest of the info. Early '60s GM cars did not have the VIN stamped on engine blocks, just a horsepower and option code. So once again, before we can say that GM HAD to stamp a VIN on everything, one must state the time frame under question.

"All cars made by GM were VIN'd."

Now we're getting into a fine tuned area. Car bodies AND frames were stamped with the same VIN number. The body had a VIN tag rivited to it. The frame had the VIN stamped into it. Take away EITHER the body with its tag, or the portion of the frame with the VIN stamping, and you have entered the world of the mongrel restoration without a pedigree.

"the chassis plate which is on the frame is THE CAR."

Now you have hit upon the KEY issue. I don't believe that Jim's car has an 0846 chassis plate upon it. If it DID, wouldn't PIPER have offered this up as ABSOLUTE PROOF that the car WAS INDEED 0846???? But apparently he never did indicate this. Why not? If the chassis plate ID was intact, why wouldn't Piper, Jim, Ferrarista in general, be quick to positively identify this car as being 0846? That's what all the discussion is about. The "facts" seem cloudy. Once again, not blasting Jim, just participating in a lively Ferrari discussion.

"Even within Corvette circles, its well known the chassis is the car. This has been established in court several times and with some regard to a well known Corvette."

And once again, you hip upon the KEY issue. If the chassis can not be POSITIVELY proven to be 0846, then how can anybody truthfully say that it IS 0846???

"With Ferraris especially race ones its unrealistic to have the original engine in the car. Its not that way with street Vettes."

I will politely say hogwash!!! Many Ferraris aren't expected to have their original engine because most of them were blown up during races. But that still doesn't change the fact that SOME of them still have their original engines, and those cars are extremely valuable. Once again, those that are missing their extremely valuable original engines are trying to gloss over that fact. As for street Vettes and other cars, on any given day in the 1960s, more street cars were running in more races and producing more blown engines than all the sanction races put together! And NOBODY is cutting an old street racer ANY SLACK because it was run hard and missing its original engine after restoration. There was one 1969 ZL1 Camaro that was originally sold in north Arkansas that had the original engine blown out within a few months after it was sold. It now has a non-original aluminum engine block. This car will be worth THOUSANDS less that a car WITH the original engine. Nobody would let it slide by with a non-original engine. Ferraris shouldn't be allowed to participate in some "double standard" sliding either.

"Some of the most valued Vettes are the Baldwin Motion cars. Many don't have the original motor but will still command high dollars. Same with the race Corvettes. They still take in big money (for corvettes anyway) and with Vettes just like Ferraris, the chassis is the car. I've consulted along with a friend of mine for Joel Rosen of Motion Peformance when he would get inquirys as to how to restore some of his Corvette Phase III GT's. They are some of the biggest high dollar vettes out there and I'm a nobody. But Joel knew that myself and my friend Dominick knew what the cars looked like better than anyone else he knew. Anybody who knows Rosen can verify this. Joels yellow 71 which I beleive he recently sold went for a rumored $400,000. Thats the ballpark number."

AHHHH, THE BALDWIN MOTION CORVETTES... Now we DEFINATELY enter a murky area. I have heard about the "verification" process involving the Baldwin Motion cars. The last time I checked, Rosen would "check" on an alledged Baldwin Motion car for only ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS!!! That was his charge for accessing the documention. And where did I hear this? About 10 years ago, I located a 1968 Corvette out on Long Island New York that the owner knew with fairly good certainty that it was a Baldwin Motion Corvette. He had contacted Rosen and learned that they charge $1000 to access their files and document a car. The owner of the car thought that was absurd. For what it's worth, so do I. I have researched many Corvettes and have gotten data from state DMVs, dealerships, etc and have never paid more than postage for my info. A thousand dollars is rediculous. Anyway, the owner of the Corvette declined to pay the fee and just advertised the car for sale. I don't know if it sold or not. And for what it's worth, the guy with the Corvette was a long time friend of Big Daddy Don Garlits and knew plenty about cars. So as far as I'm concerned, Baldwin Motion cars have no more validity that any other car.

"Everyone knows when a Ferrari race car is restored its not going to be original. Thats not what matters to the Ferrari collector. What matters is the chassis. Ferrari race cars stop being original before the first race as changes are made in preperation and time trials. Its nothing like Grampas Ax where the head and then handle are replaced. Something must remain. Did I mention that would be the chassis?" Its not a matter of percentage, its the chassis plate or identification tag or whatever you like to call it. So the original engine is not important but it should be as correct as possible. Its not some insinuation as you put it. Actually very few Ferrari people car about that. You are bringing the Vette/Muscle car mentality into this and its just not the same. The engine is not as important as the chassis."

Once again you bring up the KEY issue. The CHASSIS. As you say yourself, "its the chassis plate or identification tag or whatever you like to call it." So can we safely say that if that plate or tag is NOT there, then that is NOT the car?????
And maybe the reason Ferrari people don't care about the engine is because it is seldom left intact. So that's how they justify their double standard. If 95% of the wind and cheese Ferrari collectors are missing their original engine, then let's just ignore the other 5%. Instant respectibility and originality!!! WOW, I wish I could do that with my Corvettes!!!


If you take an original corvette, take JUST the chassis and sell the rest of the parts including body, ineterior etc. The person who has the chassis owns the car regardless that the rest of the car is of a higher percentage of that original car. Another person can take the parts and place it on a chassis he built himself. The possessor of the original chassis is still the owner of the car."

Back to that KEY issue again. No original chassis means no original car. So once again, if 0846 or whatever does not have its original chassis with the original serial number stampings, then we just have to say it's a reproduction or a replica or more rudely, a fake. That is what you're saying, isn't it?

"In conclusion, you can not treat Ferraris the same way we treat muscle cars, even the American race cars. They just have different standards."

I say they have different standards because some people just can't accept the fact that once something is gone, it's gone. And no amount of double standard, hoity-toity, wine and cheese snobbery will change that fact. If one replicates a car from a scrap of a frame, then it is simply NOT THE SAME CAR!!!! As I said before, the truth hurts.

 

i honestly have no idea and never knew someone tried to do that... i'm surprised this it the first time this is coming up since all of this began...

 

Could Coletti (sp?) have been involved with the gearbox, they used to supply many teams back then didn't they?

Pete

 

P4Racer, you question begs for an answer!!! Why haven't some of the "experts" posted an answer to this question? Are you saying that someone attempted to fabricate 0846 in the past? We must hear more of this? Certainly the "expert" have knowledge of this?

Why the stoney silence on this question?

(crickets chirping.....silence.....)

 

Horsefly:
GM did NOT stamp the VIN on all its engine blocks. One would have to specify a more exact time frame to qualify that

Ed:
You're right it probably started in the early 60's??

Horsefly:
(Ed's original quote)With Ferraris especially race ones its unrealistic to have the original engine in the car. Its not that way with street Vettes."

I will politely say hogwash!!! Many Ferraris aren't expected to have their original engine because most of them were blown up during races. But that still doesn't change the fact that SOME of them still have their original engines, and those cars are extremely valuable.

Ed:
So what you're saying is that it IS REALISTIC to expect to find the original motor? Many street Ferraris have the original motors. There might be a handful of race heritage Ferraris with the original motor but not likely, therefore its unrealistic, plain and simple. Some people make millions hitting lotto, should it be realistic to expect to hit when you play? As far as the race Fcars with original motors, that is NOT what makes them valuable. If the car had a more significant race history, such as winning LM, THAT would make the car more valuable. Agian you are bringing muscle car standards into Ferraris world. It doesn't work that way, whether you accept it or not. The market decides the standards by which these are judged.

Horsefly:
There was one 1969 ZL1 Camaro that was originally sold in north Arkansas that had the original engine blown out within a few months after it was sold. It now has a non-original aluminum engine block. This car will be worth THOUSANDS less that a car WITH the original engine. Nobody would let it slide by with a non-original engine. Ferraris shouldn't be allowed to participate in some "double standard" sliding either.

Ed:
Its not a double standard. There is no standard except the simple supply and demand. So the ZL1 Camro will be worth thousnad less, so what. When you talk about a ZL1 Camaro they are much more valuable than most other Camaros, like to the tune of masybe $75,000, is that about right give or take. So take a few thousand off the unoriginal engined car. It still worth more than a run of the mill big block.

Horsefly:
AHHHH, THE BALDWIN MOTION CORVETTES... Now we DEFINATELY enter a murky area. I have heard about the "verification" process involving the Baldwin Motion cars. The last time I checked, Rosen would "check" on an alledged Baldwin Motion car for only ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS!!! That was his charge for accessing the documention. And where did I hear this? About 10 years ago, I located a 1968 Corvette out on Long Island New York that the owner knew with fairly good certainty that it was a Baldwin Motion Corvette. He had contacted Rosen and learned that they charge $1000 to access their files and document a car. The owner of the car thought that was absurd. For what it's worth, so do I. I have researched many Corvettes and have gotten data from state DMVs, dealerships, etc and have never paid more than postage for my info. A thousand dollars is rediculous. Anyway, the owner of the Corvette declined to pay the fee and just advertised the car for sale. I don't know if it sold or not. And for what it's worth, the guy with the Corvette was a long time friend of Big Daddy Don Garlits and knew plenty about cars. So as far as I'm concerned, Baldwin Motion cars have no more validity that any other car.

Ed:
Joel has been known to charge $1500. He would sometimes do it for free. It really depened on his mood and if the person asking was an a**hole. When you are talking about 6 figure cars, a written document from Rosen is a great piece and will boost the value more than the $1000-$1500. So you save $1000 and lose $15000 when you sell the car. To me thats more absurd than spending $1000. You can do all the research you want, but without verifying the VIN through BM its very hard to verify the car as a true BM unless you had real proof in the form of dealership papers. But if you have that then you do not need to do any real research. Frim that point its easy. For what its worth, Joel is definately nutty. Nutty like a Fox. Hes a ruthless business man.

Horesfly
Back to that KEY issue again. No original chassis means no original car. So once again, if 0846 or whatever does not have its original chassis with the original serial number stampings, then we just have to say it's a reproduction or a replica or more rudely, a fake. That is what you're saying, isn't it?

Ed:
I am hardly saying its a fake or anything like that. I am saying it is much harder to verify and maybe impossible. Thats up to Ferrari S.P.A. as JG and just about every other post has been stating. However it would seem that no matter what, there will be mystery around this car forever.

Finally its not a matter of truth hurting or Ferrari people not able to face facts any kind of silly catch phrase you can think of. The simple fact is there are many more muscle cars and Vettes than Ferraris. So the standards are higher for the muscle cars. Its supply and demand. I have a 69 427/390 4sp coupe. They made over 10,500 390hp vettes in 69. Many have the original motor so finding one was not very hard. They made a handful of P3, P4's. Big difference in standards and the people with the real money agree on there set of standards and thats all that matters in that circle. Cash is king and makes the rules. The standards can't possibly be the same or as you describe they should be. Simply because of the prices they trade hands for and the limited number produced of each example. Ferraris and muscle cars have very little in common. You don't have to like it, or even accept it. But its a fact.

Sincerely,
Ed

 

Model Builder said:
"Cash is king and makes the rules. The standards can't possibly be the same or as you describe they should be."
So it just comes down to one fact: Money buys legitimacy? Sorry, but I stand by my opinions. A few scraps of a frame do not a car make. I don't care how rich or wealthy the owners are. The Emperor has NO clothes and if his car has NO original serial number or NO original body or NO original engine, then it is not the original car. The Emperor drives a reproduction.

 

Horsefly,

I think you are making too bigger deal about the chassis number. If I bought 0856 and took a grinder to the chassis and removed the little chassis plate ... that does NOT make the chassis a non-genuine reproduction chassis. It is just a genuine chassis that has lost its identification.

Jim, believes in the repairing of the chassis for 0846 that the chassis tag was lost/thrown away/whatever (?) but that a large majority of his chassis is 0846.

The fact that it does not have the tag simply makes it harder to prove that the chassis is 0846. The chassis is NOT the tag.

Thus yes Jim's car will never be the original Ferrari P3 converted to a P4 by Ferrari, as the body has been changed, BUT their are VERY few RACE Ferraris that are exactly as left the Ferrari factory anyway.

The difference between race cars and road cars, is that the engine that was put in the chassis was never, ever intended to live there permanentely. That is a rediculous comment as engines when raced need to get rebuilt or the time, thus you have spare engines so the car can keep racing. Only in very amature race series does a race car only have a single engine ... a P3/4 is not an amature race car.

Money also does not buy legitimacy, how can it, it is either real or not ...

Regarding:

There is no double standard ... man how can you not understand this. 0856 has the engine (I believe) that it raced at Le Mans with. This is cool, not necessarily the engine Ferrari first put in the car but it is the engine that it raced at arguably its most important race. Again a race car will be worth more with an historically important engine in it than the original engine (which might have only been used to position the car for the press release and photo shoot).

If a race Ferrari obviously does not have a correct engine (type, etc.) the value is heaps reduced ... no double standard.

Please stop this nonsense of talking about original engines with race cars that probably had as part of a team of cars over 10 engines to choose from.

Do you think Michael Schumachers F1 2004 Ferrari only ever races with the same engine?

Ofcourse not, probably never ever used again and thrown away and now the beer can that you drank out of last night was recycled from it ...

Many years ago a 206 Dino race car was found that was as close as any Ferrari race car was ever going to get to being 100% original. The only change to this car was the addition of an extra gauge to the dash. This car NEVER raced in anything serious and was simply used for some local hill climbs ... and sold for a fortune.

Personally I would rather have the 206 Dino that was raced considerably, bounced off walls by famous drivers and won big races ... but each to their own

In conclusion the chassis is everything, but that does not mean that the chassis tag is everything ... just great if it is there.

Pete

 

Horesfly, I am starting to wonder if you are a reporter for the New York Times. Because you have a talent for misquoting me or taking something out of context. (please, no offense to the media, don't start getting all bent out of shape if you are a reporter)

You're misunderstanding me. Or maybe you just don't want to understand. I am not saying money will make this or any other car 0846 or buy legitamacy to any other car. Although in all fairness its not out of the realm of possibility. People in the past have attempted it and have failed. And if someone has done that, well, we wouldn't know about it because they have succeeded. But thats not what I was getting at. What I am saying is that its obvious the money talks when people will pay millions for a car that has only the frame as original. No original engine, no original body panels, just the frame. The collectors into F race cars do not need to have them held to such a high standard. Its just not reasonable. They understand this point and thats what matters. Otherwise these cars wouldn't be in such high demand, trading for 7 figures. As opposed to musclecars when you want engine, trans, or even paint, when competing for most original is the goal.

"Most Original" is what the "purist" muscle car guys want because of the sheer volume of cars available. I understand this as I have several cars in that catagory. That is what seperates the clutter. A totally original unrestored car is hard to find. That brings the numbers of cars available into a high demand situation.

Perhaps the best way to explain the difference between the muscle car and Ferrari mentality is this. All ferraris are referred to by the chassis number for more than just identification purposes of originality. Its much deeper than that. Ferraris are very much all individual. Many, many are unique. Much more so than your GM mass produced car. If my 427 Vette blows up tomorrow, nobody but me and my insurance company will care. It gets scraped and I buy another. There are websites dedicated the databasing every chassis and its history. Ferrari guys get specific. When muscle car guys talk we talk general by comparison (most of the time). We'll talk about '68 442 W30's and what came with it. But we very rarely if ever talk about a specific one that hasn't been found yet. With Ferrari, we do just that very thing. Its a more personal kind of car. And that why little parts of that very car count. It may not make the car itself (thats what is being decided) but it means more then the way the muscle car crowd thinks.

Let take for exapmle the 2 ZL1 '69 Corvette. The yellow and the white one. I think both have the original drivetrain? Not sure. For the sake of argument, lets say tomorrow both cars blow the motors so bad that they can't be repaired. Both cars get replacment ZL1 engines built to the same specs as original. What do we have? We have THE 2 original ZL1's (documented by the VIN) with non-original motors (correct cars). But what we do not have is 2 original ZL1's anymore (because they lost the motors they are no longer original). What would happen to value. In my opinion nothing, they would stay the same. Reason: No original ZL1 Vette exists to obtain. What does exist are the 2 original cars, but not original in configuaration. But factory correct in configuration. Now, if only one car blew the motor. The original would be higher in value of course.

Since the chassis plate is the one clear piece of evidence to establish Ferraris and since the frame in question does not have that part, it will undoubtedly make indentification very very difficult if not unlikely. But that might not be the ONLY means of identifying a car when the plate is no longer in existance. If evidence is compelling enough.

People have been convicted of murder even when no body was found.

In my opinion the truth is the truth. If its true that the discarded 0846 frame was partly used in JG's car, he should at least have that as an anknowledgement. Whether that means he gets to claim the car as 0846 or not will be decided in the future. I can only guess that will be determined and decided by qualified individuals who are recognised and accepted by whatever authorities that can make that decision.

If it turns out the decision is that the car is a replica, then so be it. Thats what the car was intended to be in the first place. Onlookers will still enjoy it just the same.

I hope we get answers to these questions soon.

Sincerely,
Ed

 

But what if you ground the number off, hacked away a large part of the frame, trashed the original body, and swapped in a different engine? Are you still saying that IT is the SAME car? If you tried to sell a car like that on a used car lot here in the United States, you would be setting yourself up for a lawsuit.

 

I am not going to discuss Jim's car here as I do not know the percentage of the original frame ... and I believe the engine has claims to being an engine that lived in 0846 during its works racing history (atleast for one race) ... as Wayne stated earlier.

But lets talk about what happens when a car has an accident. A normal everyday car, say a Ford something.

I had a friend that I worked with who owned a particular (boring ) car that his daughter parked next to the curb on a road. Some idiot came around the corner and hit this car.

The car was insured and went to a panel beater and amazingly was fixed. It must have been very close to being written off, because the panel beater firm basically replaced close to half the body shell with another half off another car!!! ... I know this because the guy I worked with discussed the repairs and also the panel beater shop was just down the road from where we worked.

Thus this sort of repair happens all the time and this car was still 100% legit.

Also pick up a copy of the latest Classic and Sportscar (I think, or Classic and Thoroughbred) and there is an article on a Jaguar XKSS. This car was hacked massively during its life. Once had a Ford v8 in it (infact it won many races with this engine), then was restored by Linxs as a D type, then the owner had a change of mind (probably related to the XKSS rarity) and had Linxs re-restore it back to a XKSS. This car is worth a fortune and nobody questions its history or authenticity (sp?). Why?, because even though it probably has had huge amounts of the car replaced the full history of the car is 100% traced and understood ... this car simply has had more maintenance than a normal car .

Cars crash and get repaired. What you are saying is that if a car is crashed, it can never be repaired ... sometimes replacing bent or broken parts is far easier and safer than repairing, or even the only possible solution.

Pete

 

Was around when #3445 was getting it's original (well, a copy of) body put back on about a decade ago. In fact I got to go and pick it up on a trailer. It had a Drogo body that was not quite as nice when it got T boned in London many moons previous. That GTO, from memory didn't quite reach the lofty heights at auction as some others, turned in at just over 5 and a bit USD. My point is that, at this level, should JG decide to sell the P4, the market will determine what the vehicle is worth and it's degree of authenticity so I don't really see what all the fuss is about.

 

Exactly!, Jim has hardly kept what he is doing, etc. a secret ...

Pete

 

It's getting so I forget what books and magazines I've got!

I looked in 'Ferrari: The Gran Tourismo and Competition Berlinettas' by Dean Batchelor (which doesn't have numbered pages); there is another photograph of the first P3 in 1966, and again the gearbox appears identical to Jim's.

The Italian gearbox company who provided the original box for the Ford GT40 in 1964 was GSD (Gear Speed Developments), consisting of two partners, ex-Maserati gearbox designer Valerio Colotti and Alf Francis (real name Alfons Kowalevski IIRC; the ex-racing mechanic and sometime racing-car builder from Poland via England to Italy), so the boxes were generally known as Colotti-Francis. They acquired a reputation for unreliability, possibly unfairly, from Stirling Moss having many failures with his F1 Cooper in 1959, and from the GT40s having their Colottis replaced with ZFs for 1965. I don't remember hearing of Ferrari ever using any, but I will look for a photo of one in a GT40.

PWM

 

In one or other of the many posts on this subject the words "bored and stroked F1 engine" were used, as I remember.

The 4-cam Ferrari racing engines all derived from the Type 130 of 1957, used in the 290MM, then enlarged until in the 335S it reached a bore of 77mm. This was standard when the design was resurrected in 1965 as the basis of the 275P2, 330P2, 330P3 and 330P4 engines, AND ALSO the Formula 1 V12 engines from 1966 to 1969 - they were all of 77mm bore, but the F1 engine was a short-stroke version of the 275P2 at 53.5mm while the 330 engines had a stroke of 71mm. The difference was in the taller casting of the block - you can't just stick in a long-throw crankshaft and some packers to take a 3000cc engine up to 4000cc.

The visible difference between the F1 and sports 4-cam engines was that the F1 had the distributors mounted lengthwise on the rear of the cylinder-heads, whereas the sportscars had them upright or at an angle from perpendicular, as Jim's does.


PWM

 

While on vacation in Italy, Joe Smith stumbled across something buried in the ground. He dug it up. It was one of the long lost arms to the original Venus de Milo statue. Joe took the arm back home and fabricated the rest of the statue using the arm as a starting point. Since the arm can be traced back to the original statue, it's history is well known. Joe hopes to sell his statue for several million dollars because it is an original. What do you think his chances are?

Insert the words "chassis parts" in the place of "arms", and insert the words "rare Ferrari" in place of "statue".

 

Forgive me if this has been covered as I have not read this whole thread but what does the man who sold the parts to Jim have to say about all of this? Has he commented about his opinion?

 

Jeff, most of this entire discussion thread has been speculative. All of the information concerning 0846 is not "on the table" so to speak. Therefore, much of our ongoing discussion is theoritical because it contains assumptions about the facts and we are "in the dark" to much of the information. But the same sort of restoration/originality questions exist among many other restored vintage race cars, so nobody should think that we are blasting Jim or his P4 project. Unfortunately, some people can't handle such a debate.

 

This thread is like watching busybody, nosy old ladies play bridge and gossip.

Wilma: "Thelma claims she didn't know Roy was actually the long-lost son of ..."
Wilmanita: "... a b!tch!"
Wanda: "*Gasp*!"
Edna: "Roy is a bastard?"
Wilma: "I think so. Pass me another finger sandwich, dear..."

 

Any way you cut it, when the smoke clears, and all the hot air has blown away, this is going to be one spectacular piece of machinery.