The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Pass the popcorn, this is just begining to get good.

 

Then I suggest you also grab a couple of beers, and pull up a chair, Eric ....

But firstly, I would like to publicly apologise to Jim, Max and David (both in absentia). It was never my intention for the content of that email to be made public. Yes, I had forwarded it to a couple of friends (fellow P4 enthusiasts - whom I can trust implicitly) both when I first recieved it, back in May last year, and again more recently, when I re-discovered it during the back-up and restore of my PC.
More foolishly, I also forwarded it to some other FerrariChat users, who were pressing me to disclose my 'privileged information'. I am not accusing anybody, at this stage - just admitting my own stupidity. I have absolutely no idea who actually made the posting, but I will endeavour to find out, and take them to task.
Again, Gentlemen, please accept my sincere apologies ....

 

Even if that email WAS real, who's to say that it's truthful...? With all that i've seen, heard and read, it seems the content in that email is weightless...

 

Secondly - I missed replying to one of NNO's little 'side-swipes', yesterday ....

Then you won’t be doing a thorough “job”, Carbon. Any PROPER model registry takes account of any cars that may have been converted into replicas. For instance, take the 330GT Registry.
See: http://www.parrotbyte.com/330GTRegistry/Detail/SN_6067.html

It was by interrogating their registry, back in early February, that I was finally able to track down that #23 Jim Carpenter-built P4 replica (shown in post #222) and subsequently make contact with the owners, and pass back updated details to the registry owner.

P.S. - Instead of getting a new ‘job’, Carbon – may I respectfully suggest that YOU ought to ‘get a life’, first.

 

Then, may I respectfully suggest, that Macca goes and has his eyes tested, Jim.
I thought that I had proven in the ‘Gearbox issues’ thread, fairly conclusively, that the gearbox in your P4 was definitely NOT a P4 gearbox, if only by the sheer number of photos of the CORRECT item that I had posted. Macca went on to make another couple of posts with regard to a photo of a P3’s (in fact #0846’s) gearbox – to which I am still delinquent in replying. (Apart from my PC’s crash last week, I do, contrary to accusations, also have a life outside of Ferrarichat). That discussion is still open. It is a well known FACT that the P3’s in ’66 (and the 412P’s early in ’67) all used a ZF transmission. The photo that Macca refers to in Prunet (page 324) is one of the factory press shots. The car was possibly still at ‘prototype stage’, and it is quite conceivable that the factory fitted a ’66 F1 gearbox, just to finish off the car and roll it out for the press. It is certainly NOT a ZF transmission, and looks almost identical to the interim ‘66/’67 F1 box as also fitted to the 250 P5 … See your own photo below.

Getting back to the subject of the engine, as Macca pointed out, back in his post #139:

Macca is quite correct here. There are VERY few visible external differences between the interim ‘66/’67 F1 motor and a correct P4 (Type 237) engine. Both are 60 degree V-12’s of 77mm bore, with three valves per cylinder and twin plug ignition, and the castings are also very similar, apart from a ¾” or so difference in the heights of the engine blocks. See table below, copied from page 533 of ‘Tanner’ (5th Edition). I hope it comes out legibly.
As Macca also states, one of the main differences are the take-offs for the distributor drives. Both engines drive their twin distributors off the ends of the camshafts. Were ‘someone’ capable of copying a pair of a P4’s engines right–angled distributor base castings, and machining a couple of sets of bevel gears to go inside, this part of the conversion could be relatively easy. The other major visible difference are the intake trumpets. Obviously there are plenty of the traditional old metal-working artisans still around, who could hammer out a set of 12 curved P4 intake trumpets to replace the F1 engine’s straight ones. Move a few ancilliaries around, and ‘Hey Presto’ you’ve got a ‘genuine’ (though possibly short-stroke) P4 engine. Tell me, Jim – what does your motor rev to ? 8 thousand – or is there a ‘little’ more to come ?

But we have been through all this once before, haven’t we Jim ? And when I asked you if you had verified the bore AND STROKE of your P4’s engine, back then – you never replied to me.
See posts #13 through #17 of the David Piper 250LM thread: http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=120292#post120292

Perhaps, Jim, if your P4’s engine’s origins were actually ex-F1, that might just explain the need for your ‘Napalm in the morning’ starting procedure for the engine, described in an old thread from WAY back ….

 

Geez Paul.

I know you don't mean me. As we could certainly ask Rob to look and see what IP address the posting came from. I have a static IP both at home and work, so I can show you it didn't come from this laptop, nor was it forwarded by me to anyone else, even after it was posted here.

I promised you I would keep the email's content confidential, and did. but, now it's out and there's no stuffing the genie back in the bottle. Any info I can provide to clear up the latest mystery, just let me know.

I'm sure there will be a round of denials, accusations, further denials, etc., that come from the posting of this email.

 

And not a slur on David, either - just trying to lighten up these discussions ....

And this is NOT directed at Jim, either -
But the question you gotta ask yourself is:
Would YOU buy a second-hand racecar of dubious origin, and even more doubtful provenance, from this man ?

 

Paul, did it come from the factory...? Did it begin life as a Ferrari...? i think you have no idea what you're saying and should probably keep your mouth shut when grown folks are talking.

If a car started life as a REAL Ferrari and is now a replica of something else (usually another Ferrari), we have record of it... If a car started life as something ELSE and is now a replica of a Ferrari, we don't have record of it...

So if your P4 replica chassis started life as a Ferrari, we have some record of it, somewhere, at some point in its life... but it's CERTAINLY not listed as a P4...! Only P4s are listed as P4s... Just like 288 GTO replicas on 328 chassis are listed as 328s, not 288s... Got it...?

 

Dave - I wasn't accusing anybody, as I said - and least of all you. I think I was pretty open with you, in our various emails last night - that is because I trusted your word, and I still do. Perhaps another person that I forwarded it to, may, in turn, have forwarded it on to someone else less scrupulous.
The accusations may fly, but it's academic really - the damage is already done, unfortunately ....

 

Carbon.
I wasn't referring to MY P4 replica, but the Carpenter-built P4 replica based on 330GT S/N 6067GT.
I suggest you READ my posts before you blast off your mindless replies ....
Have YOU got it yet ?

 

Paul and Carbon.

Could you two stop the bickering, name calling, etc. You are both grown men, right?

You disagree on this issue, right?

So, how about a duel to the death with facts on this, not jabbing with verbal sticks.

Just a thought.

Dave

 

How about pistols at dawn, Carbon ? Or do you prefer the epeé ? En Garde !

 

Pistols makes it too easy; if either one of us is a better shot than the other, then it's gonna be quick and, frankly, not much fun... i'm all for the epee; to the death, of course, there's really no other way to play... However, i'm not flying all the way to England just to slap you with a glove and gloomily utter "i challenge you... to a duel"... You'll need to come stateside...

Sorry, Dave, since no one really has all the facts, i figured i'd just spew verbal nonsense until Paul got tired and left... Forgive me...?

 

Well fancy that ! I NEVER would have guessed. So now you've admitted that, why don't you go back and read some of my posts, Carbon ? There's actually some 'good stuff' in there - even if I say so myself !

P.S. I'm still here - and waiting, in anticipation, for Jim's next reply ....

 

Paul, they don't have 'sarcasm' over there in Swindon...? Keep up, man, i'd hate to leave you standing there with your, uh, epee in your hand...

 

I already have two offers of accomodation for Pebble / Monterey weeks ....
Now it's just the slight matter of the air fares. Hopefully, I'll see you there !

 

Bring your epee; i'll buy you a beer if we can chat civilly... Just look for a dude with a black horse on his chest; that's me...

 

See, now you boys are playing much nicer.

Still getting in digs, mixed with facts and conjecture, but at least we're looking at some civil conversations.

Oh, I think that you should duel to the death with wet noodles.

 

Folks, it is time to shut this one down. If this keeps up, I suspect that the next sound that some of you are going to hear will be the soft thud of a lawsuit dropping in your lap. The Jim Glickenhaus bashers have had their say. Those of us who applaud Jim for his openness and have thanked for him for sharing this project with us have already come to his defense, as if he needed any defense. But, the truth is that the collective opinion of those of us in the peanut gallery is about as valuable as a warm bucket of spit. Indeed, this may be overstating the case.

The real “experts,” whoever they are, will make their call based on their own knowledge and experience based on the evidence presented to them. If their opinion can be swayed by a unruly mob like us; well, then they are not really experts are they?

Let’s give this dead horse a rest, shall we? Personally, I am continually amazed that Jim has chosen to share his work with the rest of us by posting pictures on the Internet. Most collectors of Jim’s statute are obsessed with privacy. They buy very important and valuable cars and lock them far, far away from the public’s eye. The chances of you and I ever getting to see these cars, even in pictures, are worse than slim to none. The bad news is that threads like these justify this obsessive need for privacy. Can’t you just imagine the conversion, “Hey, you better not let anyone take pictures of your cars. Remember what happened to Glickenhaus on Ferrari Chat!”

So P4Replica or whoever, you have had your say. Jim has promised that he will share all in good time, and I have no doubt that he will. Again, I’m just amazed that he will even give us the time of day because Jim Glickenhaus has nothing to prove to you or me.

So why don’t we just sit back and watch as this panorama unfolds. Maybe this car is #0846. Maybe it is #007, or maybe it is #666. At the end of the day, who really cares? It is a beautiful Ferrari, and I’d like to thank Jim for sharing it with us. Some might see this whole thing as a trivial vanity, particulary on Memorial Day, however, I, for one, am glad that there is a little more beauty in world than there was before.

Thank you Jim for your efforts. But, most of all, my heartfelt thanks to all who have served, or who are currently serving. They are the ones who we should be thinking about on this Memorial Day.

Dale

 

^^^^^^^^^ YEA!!! WHAT HE SAID!!!! ^^^^^^^^

 

Dave,
If I do make it over there to Monterey / Pebble - because AM I looking forward to seeing such a great concourse of 'P' cars (#0850; #0854; #0856 and #0858 plus Jim's car are all rumoured to be attending various events) -
You can guarantee one thing - I will be wearing a bulletproof vest !

I will also be sure to pack a small supply of www.p4replica-register.com window stickers and calling cards -
Just in case I see the odd high quality Ferrari P4 replica, there, you understand ....

 

I was too busy replying to Dave's post - and didn't even realise we'd moved over to page 14 !
So, Sorry - I missed replying to this post (in order).
'A beer' ??? You cheapskate !
The amount of sh*t you've given me over the last couple of weeks, it ought to be AT LEAST a SIX-PACK !

Seriously though, Carbon - it's a pleasure 'duelling' with on you, even if it does divert away from the more serious issues at question here. (Which we now all know was your deliberate hidden agenda).

P.S. Oh Yes, and I spotted your very subtle 'attempt' at sarcasm - I guess there will be a few thousand people 'with a black horse' on their chests, in attendance. Nice try !

That's my last post for tonight, Carbon - I'm outa here !

 

My only stake in this game is side bets. In this game of Poker - Those who thought they were going to tear a new ******* have succeeded only in tearing theirs, because they didn't notice that when 'Napolis bends over, he bends over backwards.

"Truth is never offensive but it's not necessarly what everyone believes or that which is written. For many years many believed that MK-IV J6 won LeMans in 1967 driven by Gurney/Foyt and that J5 Driven by Donohue/McLaren finished fourth. The people who believed this included many "experts", authors and even The Henery Ford Museum. They were wrong. J5 is the Foyt/Gurney car and mine which is J6 is the Donohue/Mclaren car. Proving this involved a lot of work including finding bills of lading, taking cars apart, and not being afraid of finding the truth no matter what it was.
The latest editions have corected this mistake. If you call Bob Casey at the Henry Ford museam he will confirm this, even though they still haven't corrected their signs. My car is J6 always has been and their car is J5,even though it is missing it's chassis plate, original engine, original steering wheel, radiator and other parts. It does however still have the crushed section of tub which John Collins hammered down to give Dan Gurney a little more head room as mine still has the dent that Bruce Mclaren made when he threw down his helmut and ran off to retrieve the tail section that had blown off on the Mulseanne after he hit 223MPH."

Understand? 'Napolis could have let everybody, and I mean everybody - think he had the first-place finisher in the most incredible road race... But his integrity spoke otherwise and he bent over backwards to determine what is and is not...

...and so he did with this chassis. If that meant Pokerhand-tipping critics grabbed their ankles and tore themselves new *******s, then so be it.

 

LOL.

There's a lot I am tempted to say about this thread... but I fear that will just cause everyone to feel compelled to re-state their case. And I think, at this point, we can all agree that everyone here has had their say (and more). The poll has been exercised... and as expected showed the fairly random result corresponding to a bunch of people just guessing.

The real Ferrari researchers will do their work independent of this thread and will have much more information to work with and an answer will surely appear with plenty of documentation that we can all be fully educated... whether we each end up believing the answer or not.

Given everything Mr. G has said and shared, I have no reason to believe that he will not be as helpful as possible in the quest to the truth... and fully forthcoming when the truth is determined (as best as possible).

And I am certainly looking forward to seeing his P3/4 and any other P3, P4, P3/4, etc., this August in Monterey!! It is my favorite Ferrari of all time.


Since this thread seems to be at a "happy point" (i.e., stable) and everyone seems to have had their say, I am closing it... it DOES feel like a powder keg at the moment. If you feel this thread needs to continue for some purpose that I am missing, feel free to send me a PM and I'll re-open it.

 

I just got to my computer today and wanted to post a comment on the ongoing debate on 0846. Now I find that the thread has been mysteriously closed. IS THAT HOW FERRARICHAT IS GOING TO BE PLAYED FROM NOW ON? I don't recall any profanity in that first thread, any nude photographs, any horrible defamatory statements compared to many famous threads that have existed in the past. So WHY WAS THE THREAD CLOSED? If if was closed by Rob Lay, the owner of Ferrarichat, then I guess that's pretty much the end of it. But if it was closed down by others, perhaps those others need to stop CENSORING what is posted on the board. If somebody wants to question the authenticity of 0846 or any other car in a civilized manner, then let them do so WITHOUT A CENSOR standing over them like a domineering school teacher threatening to swat them on the wrist with a wooden ruler.

No offense against Jim G., but is his car a sacred cow that we can dare not question or discuss unless the slant of the discussion is shedding more favorable light onto his car?

The fact that the first thread was shut down merely adds more credence to the "hoity toity" attitudes concerning Ferraris that I have alluded to in the past. The truth speaks for itself. Multiple users engage in a lively discussion concerning the authenticity of a particular car, and the discussion is shut down.

Dr. Tax said: "Folks, it is time to shut this one down. If this keeps up, I suspect that the next sound that some of you are going to hear will be the soft thud of a lawsuit dropping in your lap."
So has it come to this on F-chat? We are not "ALLOWED" to question the authenticity of a particular car or the deep pockets with big money will call their lawyers because they are not please with the way a particular discussion is going? Heaven forbid that a lively discussion might actually unveil the truth. As I said in a previous posting: "Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue." And certainly not worthy of shutting down a thread.