The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Not wrong person... wrong argument. Freedom of speech means the government can't thrown you in jail for your posts. It does NOT mean that people or businesses have to allow you to say anything you want wherever you want. For example, if someone walks into my family-oriented business explaining the birds&bees to anyone who will listen, they will be quickly escorted out.

As I have said over and over... its easy... if you have something concrete or constructive to add to the thread, PM me with it and I'll re-open it. So far, nobody has had anything concrete or constructive to add to the discussion... that means any posts since I've closed it would simply be people picking nits with this and that and other people defending their mis-quoted nits until somebody mis-spoke and the the fireworks began.

Don't bother... just because a lot of people are hoping someone has something concrete to add, doesn't mean that anyone does. I know people want to have the mystery unfold... and I look forward to that happening. In the meantime, I'm hoping to avoid drawn-out silliness from scaring off valuable contributors to our forum. (And yes, I know some here are hoping for a good, nasty, knock-down, drag-out fight... but that's not going to be allowed here if its going to lead to owners of P4's and owners of F40 prototypes and owners of other rare Ferraris to shy away from posting.)


As soon as there's something concrete to be added, the thread will be re-opened. Like many of you, I'm waiting...

 

Regarding the question of the injection trumpets which were upright on the 1966-67 36-valve Formula 1 engine but curved on the P4; somebody (!!) said they could be easily re-made.

Looking again in the Dean Batchelor book, the P4 berlinetta that ran in the 1967 Le Mans test weekend with 0846 had upright trumpets.

PWM

 

So I was wrong......about the shortage of air!!!!

It seems to me that several of the principals, Mr. Piper, and Max, (not Jim) would be reticent to revisit all this, given my feeble understanding of the following:

Three cars (frames) produced against Enzo's Ferrari's authorization for one.

Max's (alleged) email assertion that he had "first choice" of various bodies in the barn and swapped them between cars.

The constant swapping of spares and components between cars, since he owned them all, was Mr. Piper's business. He certainly made it harder to argue the provenance of any given vehicle when compared to others which were not subjected to such treatment. Again, not to criticize or assign ulterior motives here. It is what it is. One man's spare part is another man's "unauthorized duplication". I think the posting of his picture with the caption implying he was less than scrupulous was uncalled for and does nothing to reflect on a racing driver from a great era of the past.

But now, thru the foggy distance of time, this situation makes any argument of what was included on any one car at any given time, a darn near impossible effort.

There were a pair of 250LMs whose LeMans histories were comingled for a long time, and finally sorted out.

A famous Jag was split and became two cars which both had claim to the same VIN. I think the owner finally settled that by purchasing both!

I think the story 'till now is interesting, but feel that once all the facts come out, will be even more so. The poll as stated before, won't change the facts.
And the continued examination of past emails, etc. of the business dealings by those who were not involved, IMO falls into the camp of rumor and gossip.

I think we should concentrate on the cars and avoid any accusations which could publicly embarrass the individuals involved.

If you need me I'll be in the bikini thread, or helping the guy who's wife was higher miles than anticipated! I may need to check her for matching numbers.

I don't think David knew her. He did almost make the P4 a production model, it seems!

I'll post this and see how it looks.

 

Paul.
If I had deliberately been composing a 'slur' against you, then I would have bought it terms like 'rose-tinted spectacles'. I was actually just using some wording from Jim's post to interject a little sarcasm - as tends to be my style when I have been slurred against - which is quite frequently !

Paul. I DID SPECIFICALLY REQUEST, earlier, that we did NOT use this thread to discuss specific #0846 or other P4-related issues - merely to debate the possibility of re-opening the 'Poll' thread. If you want to go over old ground (and I also have fresh inputs), can we please 'battle it out' back in the 'Gearbox issues' thread. Otherwise people WILL complain about too many dis-jointed threads !

Good - so do I - of both real P4's and P4 replicas ! Maybe when this war of words is over, you and I can get together and trade pics ?

That was a very brief reply, Paul, compared to how it could have read. Had you not 'jumped in' and partially replied to the question, before I had a chance to, I would probably have made a much better job of it.

The 'original' report, Paul ? Please can you let me know which actual article to are referring to - because I am still missing one or two. The 'original' Tony Butler P4 replica article that I have comes from December '92 Kit-Car magazine. Here is a quote from my 'P4 replica bibliography':
"Kit-Car. December 1992 Pages 38-60 The Impressionists.
Group test of Tony Butler’s Chevy V-8 powered Noble P4 Berlinetta, (actually owned by Henry Hitch) against GTD’s GT40 and Lola T70 replicas at Bruntingthorpe – with an Ultima thrown in for good measure, at the end of the article. The P4, used as Tony Butler’s development ‘mule’, before he started building his own version, was then known as the AJ4S, and carried number plates as such – rather than it’s present registration (XLP 537S)."
Note: Chevy V-8 powered NOBLE P4 (which Tony still acts as 'custodian' to). In this article, he was claiming that this car was his own product - the 'AJ4S'. Later of course he did go on to build the genuine 'Butler P4' in Rhyl.

Tony is not alone in making these sort of claims. Witness my statements about Jim Carpenter's first P4 replica (HLH-990) in the February '93 issue of Performance Car magazine. He of course did go on to build his own unique Ferrari V-12 powered P4 replica. Even our own dear affable Neil Foreman has not been averse to making such inferences. If you have the (many) road-test and build up articles on Neil's original PRV-Turbo powered Noble P4 (chassis #066, registered LEF 484W, and later 1223 NF) - go through them. See how many times he mentions the word 'Noble' - if you can find it at all ! Similarly, when Neil did the superb major conversion job (Lambo V-12 and MUCH detailing) on Max's Noble P4, in the subsequent articles in Classic & SportsCar and Which Kit in 2000, the car was referred to as a Foreman P4 replica.
I guess you can put it down to human nature. These people are obviously also using these features to push their own business, after all. Another unfortunate down-side of this, that I have also discovered is the various kit manufacturers' tendency to overstate their build numbers. Something which makes life slightly more difficult, when you are trying to compile a 'Replica Register'.

I'm not sure quite what you meant by this one, Paul - but you should see the (mixed) reactions - (mostly amazement from me) when you drive one of these P4 replicas into the UK FOC National Concours ! My intention had been to 'hide' in 'Plebs' car park, but I nearly ended up getting marshalled into the main display arena, in error !

I have NEVER called Jim a liar. I have merely questioned (and cited) his various statements - which he tends not to reply to. I have NEVER used offensive words either ! Some people on this forum may find my tone offensive. Who is this 'upstart P4 kit-car owner' who dares to question Jim (or maybe his integrity - by inference). The one thing I do find very tiring though (which probably contributes to some of my more 'negative' postings), is the number of times that I find myself being misquoted !

Now I've said my piece, can WE stop 'nit-picking' each others posts and have a civil discussion, please. I think both you and I have a wealth of information at our fingertips, and we could both add a LOT more to these discussions, if we stopped sniping for 5 minutes.

By the way, if you are still interested in P4 replicas. Neil is having another one of his 'open days' on Sunday 29th August. We tend to use these as a P4 replica owners' national rally. There should be at least a dozen of the various Noble / Butler / Foreman P4's there, plus a couple of new cars that Neil is currently working on - one Ferrari 400GT V-12 powered, and the other - a 'track-day warrior' sporting a 360 Modena V-8 ! If you'd like me to organise an invitation for you, you only have to say the word !

 

Des, I have actually been to Swindon - not your kind of place

 

And Wayne - this is EXACTLY the sort of defamatory post that I was referring to above !

 

hopefully you are joking, I actually like the area around Swindon, I know DES and was trying to add some humor, not at your expense but his. Think you need to lighten up

 

After I'd hit the 'submit reply', I was just about to close my mobile phone, when I noticed the 'MORE' button flashing. Max also wrote (in reference to the above post):
"Ask the moderator 2 (to) remove it" - Not something that you can do is it ? Brian ? Wayne ?

 

Yes, Swindon is a DUMP ! But is also very handily centrally placed, an ideal 'jumping off point' for London; Bristol; Bath and Oxford - and housing is considerably cheaper than say Reading, which is closer to London, where Mark Collins lives. It is surrounded by beautiful countryside - the part of Swindon where I live is a 10 minutes drive to the 'Cotswolds' , and less than 5 minutes drive to the Marlborough Downs ....
And I will 'lighten up' when people like you and Carbon (NNO) get off my case !

 

Oh, Yes -
and 20 minutes drive to Castle Combe; 40 minutes to Thruxton and less than than an hour's drive to Silverstone !

 

Just got to the computer today. Glad to see that we are back on the original thread track. Glad to see LWayne add his comments. I was thinking about this 0846 originality thing last night.

If I walk into the Smithsonian Institution and point at Lindberg's Spirit of St. Louis aircraft, I can truely say "THAT airplane flew across the Atlantic Ocean in 1927." By the words "THAT airplane", I truely mean THAT fuselage, THAT engine, THAT control panel, etc. THOSE ACTUAL ITEMs flew across the Atlantic Ocean in 1927 with Charles Lindberg at the controls. If I point my finger at the Apollo 11 Command Module, I can truely say THAT spacecraft flew to the moon and back in 1969.

Now let's consider P4 Ferrari number 0846. What can we point our finger at and truthfully say "THOSE ACTUAL ITEMs raced around the LeMans race track in 1967?" What ACTUAL PARTS orbited around the LeMans race track for 24 hours during that race back in 1967?

The body? No, Jim has already said that the body was not the raced fiberglass body. Now we have the mysterious e-mail that clouds the issue even further.

The chassis? No, Jim has already said that "parts" of the chassis may be original.

The engine? Well, it looks like that has considerable doubt from the more knowledgable experts on this board.

The transmission? Even more doubt from the knowledgable experts.

The wheels? No, Jim has alread said that these were recast.

The upright supports? No, if I remember correctly, Jim also had those recast.

So will somebody please tell me this:

If Jim, LWayne, P4Replica, myself, Joe Smith, Osama Bin Laden, or WHOEVER looks at 0846 and says THAT car ran the LeMans race in 1967, can they point their finger at ANY part of that car that can be 100 percent conclusively proven to have actually orbited the LeMans racetrack during the 24 hour LeMans Race?

If you can't do that, like you can with the Spirit of St. Louis, the Apollo 11 Command Module, or any other historic artifact, then
HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY SAY THAT IT IS THE SAME CAR?

 

Nicely said, I think that is what the skeptics are saying.

 

Brian, Dale, Wayne, (and of course not forgetting Rob ....)
I know that I did suggest, back in post #18, that we 'LOCKED THIS ONE DOWN' - sooner rather than later (on the basis that there were too many ongoing #0846 P4 threads), but please, if you plan to, can you leave this one open a few hours more. Just that I'd like to finish replying (objectively) to Macca's other 2 posts ....
I've got to go out now, but will be back, hopefully in a couple of hours. Thanks !

 

Apples and oranges. How many times did the Spirit of St. Louis fly across the Atlantic? If it was going to make the trip again, do you think they would take it out of the display, put fuel in it, and take off? It didn't even fly back from Paris, did it? Wasn't it sent back on a boat? Correct me if I'm mistaken. Same for Apollo. Jim has never said that 0846 has been sitting in a glass case since LeMans 1967, and that it now represents the car exactly as it last raced.

How many times are you planning on making your some point, over and over and over???

 

In the other active thread I pointed out that continued betrayal of both Max's and David Piper's request to be left out of the discussion.

I share Dr. Tax's opinion that your continued disregard for these requests can come to nothing but a bad end!

I can keep a secret if requested. What is your motivation in being established as the "P4 Replica Expert"????

It's not "Can you keep a secret and only tell a few other people?"!!!!!!

I fell you've really cast Max and David in a really poor light, in order to bolster your own "know it all" reputation. I hope it bites you in the arse (is that the English word) before all is done.

Sincerely yours,

Speedy308
"Who knows where all his number plates are"

 

How many times did Jim's car drive around the LeMans race track during the 24 hour race in 1967? We all know that P4 Ferrari serial number 0846 drove around the LeMans track many times during that race, but did Jim's car? That's the big question.

"Jim has never said that 0846 has been sitting in a glass case since LeMans 1967, and that it now represents the car exactly as it last raced."


How can it represent the car as it last raced, when Jim himself has said that it now sports an aluminum body that was never installed on the car during its lifetime? He has said that the car was wearing a fiberglass body during the LeMans race. Even if it was sporting an aluminum body during it's "LAST" race (wherever that might have been), the body it is now wearing was never installed until Jim's crew started the restoration process. So therefore, the current aluminum body never raced around any track at all. If you access the archives, you will note the photographs illustrating the process of cutting out the wheel wells on the aluminum body for the first time.

If we rebody the Spirit of America with a fiberglass fuselage and a different engine, is it the same plane that crossed the Atlantic in 1927? Hardly!!!

 

I think they are going to let them run. I guess forever.

I think you've successfully covered up all the original restoration threads with this banter and criticism.

The poll was ill advised and inflammatory from the start, I think it insults Napolis' efforts to share with all of us. And I suspect Mr. Piper and Max Wakefield will not be happy to see private info splattered all over the net.

'Nuff said, no hard fellings, just question your motivation.
Real Ferrari owner's (speaking for myself only here), rarely care about replicas,
no matter how well they deceive the casual observer.

Piper has obviously spun a real web of intrigue around this issue.

 

Not to argue, just to clarify my words: When I said "Jim has never said that 0846 has been sitting in a glass case since LeMans 1967, and that it now represents the car exactly as it last raced", I meant that he has never said those two things. Jim certainly doesn't claim that this restored car is exactly as it last raced. Sorry for confusion.

Just one other point, strictly for calm discussion. Let's say that Jim has absolute proof that the tubular chassis frame of his car IS largely from 0846, the car that Amon drove at LeMans 1967. Just for discussion you understand, I don't know of any such PROOF at this time. Which would you prefer?

1) That Jim dragged out the remains of that car (as shown on the still from the BBC video, with fire damage), tossed them into a pile, and said "Here it is folks, in all its glory, just as it last raced, 0846!!!"

2) That Jim did an outstanding restoration on HIS car, was straightforward with the facts as he honestly believes them to be, and shared the experience with other Ferrari enthusiasts.

Or what else would you have him do, just to make you happy?

 

Just for the sake of calm discussion, the Spirit of St. Louis did alot of flying after it's historic flight. I was fairly sure of that fact, but I found a link to verify it. http://www.nasm.si.edu/exhibitions/gal100/stlouis.html]
Looks like it also flew a trip to Central and South America as well.

My happiness (or P4Replica's happiness) is not the issue. The issue and the question for this thread (and others) has always been:

Is the car being restored by Jim REALLY a Ferrari P4, serial number 0846?

If I had to choose from ONE of your presupposed scenarios, I would choose Number 1. But of course, Jim can not deliver the car even in that condition. As Jim himself has indicated, the body is long gone, only unverified parts of the frame remain, and the engine and transmission are another can of questionable worms that the learned members of F-chat can not vouch for.
So as many have asked, WHERE IS 0846? It certainly doesn't seem to be in the collection of parts being assembled in Jim's garage judging from his own postings and the discussions from the Ferrari scholars on this board. It seems to be a wonderful replica project, much like many other such projects in the automotive and aircraft and historical collectible world, but it seems far removed from being a car that raced at LeMans in 1967. Plenty of symbolism, but everybody on this board anxiously awaits more concrete substance to prove that fact. It seems that many (except Jim himself) are telling us that his car is 0846, but what have we actually SEEN or LEARNED that proves this fact to us???????

 

Paul,

I'm not saying anymore and waiting and seeing as I said in the other thread. Let the professionals provide the answer ... we are just wasting out time, and as you have said that email (real or otherwise) is hardly relevant

Pete

 

Speedy, isn't this lively discussion more interesting that hearing about Carbon McCoy's hamburger that he had for lunch? (of course we haven't really gotten an update since he moved to Atlanta. How ARE the burgers down there?)

 

That's true I suppose... LOL!

I think the P4 resto thread is still going......"over there"

I guess we'll have to go to Pebble and see.

A lot of valuable race cars were lost 'cause Enzo didn't care or needed the money. Look at the F1 Sharknose. All sent to the trash!!!!

 

Have you read any of the posts of the position countering yours?

Several factors suggest that the chasis is the remains of 0846's chasis. I have SEEN and LEARNED these things. Have you missed them or simply ignored them?

One is a bend in the frame that coincides with the '67 accident. Another is the position of the engine mounting that suggests this was a P3 chasis modified into a P4.

This stuff has been stated over and over again, and you are still asking what facts there are to support that there are major parts of 0846 in this car. The question of "how much" of 0846 must be in this car to make it 0846 is an interesting one. But with regard to the chasis, there is quite a bit of evidence that has already been put in to play. And so I am extremely confused by your demand for "concrete substance," which seems to suggest that there are no facts at all that have been presented.

 

A "bend" in a frame? A position of an engine mounting? NOT a serial number stamping, NOT a VIN tag, NOT a signed bill of sale stating the serial number 0846, NOT an affadavit attesting to originality, etc. What's up with these double standards. If I bought a Chevy off a used car lot and received a bill of sale that said:

Sold to Horsefly- One car with a frame that has a bend that LOOKS like a Chevy and an engine mounting that also LOOKS like a Chevy.

Wow! I'm sure that would hold up at the DMV office and a court of law. Who needs postive ID with serial numbers when mere "frame bends" and "engine mounts" will suffice. And the NEXT step is??? How does one determine with 100% certainty that this frame was made in a Ferrari factory and not by some aftermarket artisan in Italy, or....England???

This all gives me a great idea. I have been sitting on a gold mine for over 30 years and now is the time to jump into "resto action". Back around 1970, I visited the crash site of a B-17 bomber that crashed here in Arkansas while on a training mission in 1943. The crew was killed and removed from the site. The remains of the plane were bulldozed into a pit and some years later, a memorial monument was built on the site. While visiting the site back in 1970, I picked up several pieces of hardware that came from the B-17. A piece of machine gun belt, a headphone plug, a small swivel bracket with numbers on it. Now utilizing the Ferrari line of logical thinking, I can get in touch with Boeing Aircraft (or Douglas or Vega who also made B-17s under contract) and verify with 100% certainty that my numbered bracket is from a B-17 bomber. With that verification in hand, I can then BUILD AN ENTIRE
B-17 BOMBER using this verified bracket as a starting point. It's provenance will be verifed by the part number on the bracket, the memorial at the crash site, the newspaper and public record accounts of the crash and the type of aircraft involved. Utilizing the Army Air Corps crash records, I can obtain the serial number of the aircraft itself. After I BUILD AN ENTIRE B-17 BOMBER around this 100% authenticated bracket, I can successfully claim that I OWN THE ORIGINAL BOMBER that crashed back in 1943.

This is exactly the kind of shennanigans that the Ferrari world constantly attempts to do each time it attempts to resurrect some rare car that WAS destroyed, IS destroyed, and will forever REMAIN destroyed, just like my hypothetical B-17 bomber in my above ludicrous example of restoration gone wild!

 

Despite the fact that I promised "no more nit-picking", and the fact that I probably hate correcting people who misquote me, more than you realise, Paul ..... I'd still like to put you straight on a couple of points:
What I think you'll find I actually wrote was: "ALMOST a quarter of a sphere" - and those are not my words - they are Tony Dron's, taken from the various magazine articles of the time.
Having said that (and to qualify my earlier reply on the subject of replica windscreens to Horsefly), the replica screens as supplied by Noble (and now Neil Foreman) are less curved than the original P4 screens. The disadvantage is not being able to achieve such a seemless blending of the screen into the roof panel. The gain is in the the better ability of the wiper to clear the rain.
Apparently the windscreen wipers on the real P4's were pretty ineffectual - especially at speed (due to lift and the curvature of the screen), but obviously with such a slippery shape, the rain tended to run straight off, anyway. Myself, I tend to rely on 'Rain-X' to keep the screen clear, on my P4 replica, and only keep the wipers serviceable for annual MOT tests !

Thank you for the history lesson, once again, Paul ! Please go back again and read what I wrote: "PROBABLY upgraded every variant from the original 275P and 330P of '64 to a later 'P' specification - with or without assistance from the factory."
O.K., next time I make a quote that you are likely to respond to, I will thumb the textbooks ad nauseum, before posting !

Yes, Paul, I 'muddied my own waters' by bringing in the 'Berlinetta versus Spyder' part of that posting. I did think about it at the time. However - Jim's car is re-bodied as a P4 - the fact remains that #0846 was a P3/4, and the front 'clip' and scuttle details are also subtly different.