The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

P4Replica,
My post about David Piper's precise address was just another tiny 'dig' about exact accuracy! As I posted earlier, he was kind enough not only to talk openly to me at a couple of events some years ago, but also to let me visit his workshop while 0900 was being race-prepared in order to photograph it - though both he and his wife Liz made it clear they were happier when I said I wasn't building or going to build any kind of replica (!!!).

I too am only a 'casual acquaintance' who says hello to him at events like Goodwood; I would never seek discuss these threads with him anyway, as the whole business of buying and selling old racing cars, confidentiality and affidavits is a private matter between the parties concerned. All our stuff is just so much air, but some of it has come d*mned close to generating lawsuits.

Anyway, nobody knows everything, not even Piper - he can only tell about what cars, and what parts of their history, he has been personally involved with. He didn't draw the chassis drawings and he didn't weld the tubes together, he just drove/bought/sold the cars, and then commissioned some new frames to be built from the drawings he had been given.

I've posted before about the provenance and history/historical correctness of old tube-framed racing cars, such as a Maserati 250F and some Ferrari 250TRs, so all I will say is that if the experts say someone has a chassis frame then the lack of an original continuously-fixed chassis ID plate is not vital. If somebody trys to portray his car differently to what the experts have found, it always keeps coming out because historians won't accept the less credible version - and this is not unique to the Ferrari marque.




And I think writerguy was just having a little dig also at your previous rather smug attempt to tantalise with private "information".


Paul M

 

But if Piper knew this to be the real 0864, or at least the most 0864 P4 out there, why not come forward? The silence implies it is not, and maybe that Jim was given suggestive info about the car pre-sale to spice it up.
Maybe coming forward now with a definitive statement traps someone in a less-than-truth.

 

The chassis number under debate is '0846' - from a sequence 0844-0846-0848-0850-0854-0856-0858-0860; where the whereabouts of the other seven cars is known.

And I think one point at issue is particularly that Jim was NOT given suggestive info. David Piper isn't a historian, and I think he tended to believe the longtime-accepted line that the remains of 0846 had been incorporated into the 250/P5 in 1968, without analysing the physical differences.


Paul M

 

WHO CARES IF ITS 0846...seriously, who the F cares.......the car is beautiful, the restoration is beautiful, the craftsmenship is absolutely amazing, everything about the project is second to none......everything........who cares what chassis number it is or isn't ............... geez, worry about something important.

 

"There is none so blind as they that won't see" (Jonathan Swift 1667-1745)

 

"cognoscente", in English......


But I get your drift........

 

Of course it matters if it's 0846. The P4s are a significant facet of Ferrari history. If it turns out this is the 0846 chasis (or more,) correctly rebuilt, then it would represent a major link in the chain. Of course it's not as important as international geopolitical events, but to the extent that this is a Ferrari board, you can understand how this car would be of interest and its history "important."

 

No thats not my best piece of writing.

What really irritates me is that I have made it totally clear that I want nothing to do with taking sides in this conversation. It is an interesting debate and in time will run it course. Im sorry that something I wrote about a year ago has surfaced now. Very innoying!

Is there anyway I can remove this from the debate.

Max

 

JG's car is totally awesome. An inspiration to get the job done properly. He shouldnt be discouraged from completeing this mamoth task.

 

Maybe Max. Contact Rob328gts, the owner of the site.

But he has a vested interest in the thread continuing to gather "hits".

Thank your wise buddy, there in England!!!

Regards,

Speedy308

 

Correction - 'Cognoscenti' is the plural form of the (Italian) noun 'Cognoscente'.

Cognoscente: A person with superior, usually specialized knowledge or highly refined taste; a connoisseur.

I chose to use the plural form of the word simply because it sounded more 'Italian'.
Judging by the standard of some of the postings, I did not expect to find any literary scholars on this forum.

 

you still haven't..........

so there's more than one of you there?? sometimes my gf joins me in viewing the pics, and stuff. She likes the 275GTB longnose. Thank goodness there's no parking spaces left at either of our homes!

 

It's actually an accepted English word now.....I use it myself, from time to time....when I want to sound high brow......

 

Excuse me, Paul - But what 'smug attempt' ??

I suggest (as I often seem to have to, when replying to you) that you go back and check post #328, where you will see that 'Writerguy' is actually quoting 'Horsefly' - NOT ME !
So by the same perverse logic, I assume that 'Cognoscenti's comment in post #336 "There is none so blind ...." was actually pointed at YOU. If not, I guess it should have been anyway !

PS - The 'truce' is over !

 

I agree. And I know that he isn't.

 

Hi all.
Mr Glick: stated....: Posted on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 9:43 am:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks. This is a photo of 0846 just after it was converted to a P4 from a P3 by Ferrari. It is the image that stuck in my mind for 36 years and started me down this road. We restarted the engine and are running it in. Heavy Metal Thunder!

See attached: to me this looks like a slightly different angled picture of the original #0856 P4. (take a look at the formation of the grass in front...and the background...+ all the details of the car)
The car in the picture cant be #0846.....BUT #0856.
Staff.

 

O.K., Macca ….
Let’s get this straight !
You have a good number of textbooks that you are able to quote from, but, alas, are not able to scan and upload these photos to support your (frequently repeated) arguements. You apparently, also have a good knowledge of the Ferrari ‘P’ Series history. However, not only do you seem incapable of conducting a reasoned debate; nor quoting other people correctly (or, for that matter, even to be capable of the simple matter of setting up a quote, in this forum, properly), but you seem to totally ignore any salient points, when presented to you ....
(and hence my constant need to say “Go back and read” ….)

I gave it to you ‘on a plate’ in post #78 and you still managed to miss it !

I can see that I am wasting my time, trying to get through to you. So to quote ‘Cognoscenti’:

Or should that be “they that can’t read ?”

P.S. – The gloves are off ….

 

You are quite correct about that being the press photo of 0856 not 0846.
The press photo of 0846 has been posted and I must say the gearbox looks familiar. The press photo of 0856, which I incorrectly called 0846 has however stuck in my mind for 36 years and that is why I'm restoring 0846 as a coupe.

 

Staff.
If you take the time, and trouble, to go through the older FerrariChat threads, as I have, - See PSk's thread:
P3/4 links to the Old FerrariChat site: http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20242 (although this isn't all of them, by any means) - you will find quite a few more 'incorrect' statements made about '#0846' .....

 

I've recently come across these photos in Sports Car Graphic, May 1966, showing an early P3 (obviously 0846) and a detail of its engine and gearbox. The box appears to be identical to the one in Jim's car, and NOT the same as the one in the P5.

I'm not a gearbox expert, tell me if you spot any differences. This would seem to suggest that the box going into Jim's car was used in 0846 at least at some point in its life, likely throughout the 1966 season, when 0846 retired from Sebring and LeMans with gearbox problems. I have no idea if that style box was used in any other cars, Formula One or otherwise. It does not look like a ZF box to me.

Food for polite discussion?

 

Here's a daring question. We've seen numerous photos of 0846 DURING the "restoration" process. How about some photos of the chassis BEFORE the "restoration" process? Actually seeing just how much was left of the original chassis would provide alot of healthy food for thought concerning just how much was left of the original car before all the "restoration" work ever began. I don't think that all of this debate has answered the main question: How much was actually left of the original chassis before the restoration began?????????????????????????????????????????????????????

 

Now that is a good post Miltonian ... debate over IMO.

BTW Paul, I used to not own a scanner and I can tell you it is fncken hard to scan pictures with out one. I've tried holding them up to the screen, even moving the mouse around over them ... just doesn't work! . Amazingly too when you sit back and think, who do I know who has a scanner and in this fast paced modern world it is not that easy to get something scanned ...

Macca,

FYI, to quote, try [qu*ote]insert quoted text here[/qu*ote]

Note: I have added the *'s to show you the formatting ...

Pete

 

Paul,
Could you please add the ones I missed to that thread ... that would be really appreciated. I feel that I missed many earlier ones ... and somewhere there must be the FIRST P3/4 or 0846 thread where Jim introduces his car. I have been unable to find that one.

Pete

 

You're getting warmer...