The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

Here's a few other things to chew on, regarding gearboxes. In post #2 of this thread, Paul says "In 1966, the P3's used a ZF transmission, which I believe was the type 5DS. I think that's the same one used in GT40's and Panteras."

1) I found a picture of what is apparently a ZF type 5DS transaxle. It doesn't look anything like the transmission in Jim's car.

2) I found a picture of the transmission in a DeTomaso Mangusta, a car which was introduced in 1966, same as the P3. It obviously does have a ZF transmission, which one of my books identifies as a type 5DS-25. It doesn't look anything like the transmission in Jim's car.

3) Is it POSSIBLE that the P3 never had an actual ZF transmission, but that the P3 used a ZF LIMITED SLIP DIFFERENTIAL inside a Ferrari-sourced gearbox???

4) The ZF gearboxes I have seen (not that many) always have the ZF initials inside a circle cast into the gearbox housing. You can see it on the Mangusta picture. Not on Jim's gearbox.

I always believed that the P3 had a ZF gearbox, but maybe it isn't so.... Keep the information coming and we'll all learn something.

 

Perhaps I can help. This is a picture of the gearbox in my Lola. It is a very rare GT40 racing ZF 5DS-25-0 5speed box. Jeff is on the right track.

 

I have to add that that side profile of the P3 is just awesome and for some reason the sexiest open P3 I have ever seen. Were the open P3's prettier than the open P4's or something, because that just rocks.

Pete

 

By the way, I will be perfectly willing to accept that the Sports Car Graphic picture MAY show a transmission that was only used at the press introduction of 0846, and that 0846 never RACED with that transmission, if someone comes up with pictures that show another transmission (in 0846) at one of the 1966 events. It MAY have been run with a ZF at some point in 1966, I don't know. But I don't think the transmission shown is a ZF, and that IS 0846.

 

Keep up the good work. This is very interesting. I still want a tour of your collection sometine Jeff. Well done!

 

Ack! Who's going to pick up all these old magazines!

 

P4Replica,
your post #193
"while I was going through the restore and back up of my hard drives, earlier this week, I found a very interesting email from just over a year ago. The question is: Shall I? Dare I?"

your post #209
"I do have one posting up my sleeve, which will stop this arguement dead in it's tracks, but in the meantime, it's interesting to continue these discussions and hear other peoples opinions for and against ....."

Smug? You? Surely not.


Paul M

 

Easy - I have a pornographic memory
http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/251280/151950.html

 

Thank you, gentlemen, for the previous posts continuing the sharing of information, and for posting the pictures which go with what I've been saying.

And it is indeed quite hard to post pictures without a scanner (and even when some kind person lets me use theirs to e-mail my pictures back to me I don't have the technology to reduce them to a size that the forum will accept).

And a special thanks, PSk, for the tip about quoting; I notice some other people have had the same problem as me on this thread but haven't attracted the same flaming!

test:

I've been through my books, and also old magazines I've got from 1966-67 (Motor Sport, Motor Racing, most Road & Tracks and some Autosport, Autocar and Motor; but unfortunately don't have all the ones that cover the press launches of the P3 and P4 or all their races.

The books (Prunet; Batchelor; Tanner & Nye; Beehl) all say the P3s used a ZF box in 1966.(NB: all the books were written in the 1979-1984 period)

Many of the magazines don't mention the P3 gearbox, or just say it was new (i.e. different from the P2) without naming the maker.

'Motor Racing' for April 1966, article about the P3 and 206S "Ferrari's Functional Sports-Racers" by 'Coche'; re the P3: "....The gearbox-differential is a five-speed unit based on a type experimented with success on the 1965 F1 cars. The clutch is a triple-plate Borg and Beck. Girling disc brakes are mounted at the wheels in front, and inboard, flanking the gearbox, at the rear."

Autosport for February 10, 1967, Daytona 24 hours race report by Patrick McNally: ".....Pedro Rodriguez in the NART P3 Ferrari, which he was pushing along at a furious pace. This was one of last year's factory cars, fitted with carburation instead of fuel injection and with a German 5-speed ZF gearbox replacing the Ferrari unit."

But the search continues.

Paul M

 

posted by PSk

I would say:

‘While the s/n is usually used to refer to a particular historic race car, the lack of an original and continuously fixed s/n plate (or the presence of a s/n plate on an alleged historic car) does not make the historic car unacceptable, as its physical existence is established by its history and by physical examination.’


On another forum is a post by someone who was looking at a GP car in a paddock in the 1970s and noting its s/n, when a mechinic told him not to bother, demonstrated how it was fixed with Velcro, and showed him where the real number was stamped on a bulkhead out of plain sight.

Paul M

 

The cat says: "Not me!"

 

Correct - The first postings to FerrariChat on the subject of Jim's P4 -
see Napolis' posts #10 and #11, dated 24th October, 2002. Note - 2002
I remember it well (well actually, I cheat, and keep all this stuff on Excel spreadsheets - you never know when you're going to hear that 'soft thudding sound') - To quote Dale, from his earlier post #263

Not just for the 'Napalm in the morning' quote, but this:

"This is 0846. It was a P3 that was converted by Ferrari into the first P4. It has a long history including winning Daytona in 1967. It was raced as both a coupe and a spyder. At LeMans in 1967 it developed a flat tire. Amon tried to fix it with the trusty Ferrari hammer but the head came off. He tried to drive back to the pits but the wheel caught on fire and the car burned. David Piper aquired the remains and many P4 spares from Enzo Ferrari and built this car which he and others including John Surtees raced for many years. I acquired the car from David when I met him at the Goodwood festival of Speed in 2000. Yes I still have my MK-IV and My Lola and use them regulary."

Jim's first specific claim to the provenance of #0846 (in reply to a question from Wayne Ausbrooks) - long before any of any 'evidence' was subsequently produced on Ferrarichat. Note that there are also some 'incorrect statements' in this one too - "It was raced as both a coupe and spyder"

And I guess you've followed it from the very beginning, Tom ? (Whereas I have had to back-track, from July 2003) - and you believed every word that you read - Right ?

 

Would you very very kndly remove the email that uses an email from me to P4Replica. I would be hugely grateful.

Max

 

rob328gts can, max.

Did you contact him yesteray? He responded to your post with his email addy.

Regards,

Speedy308
Who knows where his number plates are.....

 

[email protected]

 

our buddy Paul can throw it out there but only a moderator can take it down.

 

Pete.
Between what you posted in your “P3/4 links to OLD FerrariChat site”: http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20242 and those which ‘Wax’ included in his “P4 #0846 Archives”: http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7370 you’ve pretty much got it covered between you. Yes, there are a few more, and at some point (probably after the decision by the FCA on Jim’s claims to the provenance of #0846), I’ll gladly share it with you. Right now, my own records are in a form that is not easily uploadable to Ferrarichat – as I said before, a large Excel spreadsheet – that is very heavily annotated - post #; quotes; dates; comments, etc. Some of the ‘incorrect statements’ in the earlier threads make for some very interesting reading. Shall I go on ?

P.S. - Hey Macca - with your eye for historical accuracy, you would love some of this stuff (not).

 

I don't know about everybody else, but my popcorn bowl is still ready as we await some answers to some omnious questions. From the wording of that mysterious e-mail, it sounds like there was some body swapping going on with the remains of 0846 long before Jim got the car. (Of course anybody can mix and match anything that a buyer and seller agree too.) But that sure sheds some murky light upon the current status of the body on the remains of 0846. (Assuming of course that anything substantial actually remains of 0846). Also anxiously awaiting photos of the remains of 0846 BEFORE restoration so that we can see just how much was actually left of the original car. Do I hear crickets chirping among the stoney silence?

 

Max definately wants his email back!!!!

 

Exactly why I saved it into my graphics file. I figured that it would become a hot potato that would "disappear" sometime. But the cat's out of the bag now. Might as well examine that feline in greater detail!

 

By the way, to whoever it was that just initiated the virus attack on my PC, while I was in the middle of composing that last post - successfully intercepted - and reported to Symantec, who are checking on the source for me !

 

Hey, Paul (Macca*) …..

Seeing as you’ve replied to this thread, I guess you’ll be belatedly working your way back through some of the links to the Old FerrariChat threads that PSk (and Wax, previously) kindly provided. I’d seen them all before. Like I said, some of the ‘incorrect statements’ in there, make for very interesting reading. This little quote from The ‘More P4’ thread (while not that important in the grander scheme of things) still makes me chuckle:
http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/251280/210353.html You'll need to scroll down a bit.

See the reply to Des (‘Sickspeed’)’s question dated February 24th:

“Just curious-- the # 3- is that your personal choice for a number or is that the car's original race #...?”
by ‘Napolis’:
“Des. P4 doors are fiberglass and those are the original ones with the paint and # from the last time my car was driven by John Surtees (#3).”

Interesting. “Driven by John Surtees”. Unless the statement was made, in reference to some far more recent ‘historical event’ where this car (as Piper’s P4 ‘reproduction’), was driven by Surtees, and bearing in mind the context in which, I believe, this statement to have been made at the time, I can spot just a few ‘inaccuracies’. How about you, Paul ? Here’s my stab at it:

1) #0846 was last raced as a P4 driven by Chris Amon (at Le Mans in 1967, where it succumbed to fire).
2) John Surtees left Ferrari just before Le Mans in 1966 after a dispute with Dragoni (driver 'pairings' for the race).
3) John Surtees only drove #0846 once – at the Nurburgring 1000Kms in ’66, sharing the car with Parkes, when the car retired. It was carrying #1.
4) #0846 never raced carrying #3 – neither as a P3 in ’66, nor as a P4 in ’67.
5) In fact, a P3 never raced carrying #3. Only one P4 ever did either – that was at Monza in ’67, where as the winning car, it was driven by Amon and Bandini. That was, of course, #0856 !
6) Oh, Yes of course, and #0846 was carrying #20 on its doors the last time it raced !

Needless to say, there are a few others ‘inaccuracies’ dotted liberally through the thread, but the above quote makes particularly interesting reading, when read in conjunction with the 'Big Discovery Wayne P4 Doors' thread: http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/271551/278444.html?1065257971 from a few months later – July 2003, in fact – about the time I first started looking at FerrariChat.
The storyline has changed a little here, and now we’re looking at proof of previous damage to #0846’s doors. The fact that the doors in question are P4 Berlinetta doors, compared with #0846’s Spyder doors, which are subtly different in their fibreglass mouldings (besides the obvious detail of the window frames) – there is of course the question – Did anything of #0846’s doors survive the ’67 Le Mans fire ? Jim said he could see a door leaning against the back of the car, in that still photo from the BBC video. Fiberglass burns. Easily. All I can see is a big hole where one used to be. Maybe I should go and get my eyes tested. Not.

(*Heard chanting the mantra “#0846 – I believe, #0846 – I believe”, ad nauseum, in the background).

 

You really should see somebody about your paranoia.

My inbox contains 10 to 20 virii a day. It is just life in modern times. It is not the work of vengeance seekers.

Erich

 

Not IMHO, Pete - especially the front view - in the shape of the radiator opening and the headlamp area covers.
Take a look at these few (from post #5 onwards) in the 'Does anyone have pictures of a 330 ?' thread: http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16087 - Maybe the shape of the P3's (shallower) basket handle was nicer than a P4's, but the P3 Spyder's rear deck was cluttered with lots of louvres and sometimes additional cool air scoops (as at Sebring in '66).