The (one and only) '0846' Debate Thread

James, Russ, Ed, Pete thanks.

My MK-IV is registered (MK IV) and over the years I've put over 20K street miles on her.

My Lola (1 Lola) is registered as well and has even more street miles than that.

If you look at the rear of my P3/4 you'll notice an alum plate, that will be painted black, that has two Lucas number lights on the sides? (330 P4) bolts to that.
Best

 

Coming along.

Out of curiosity, what's the difference in the overall dimensions, including length and/or wheelbase, of the Lola and the P4. It's obviously partly due to perspective, but in the photo, the P4 looks so little and compact compared to the Lola.

 

Jim, if you ever have an opening for a night watchman, you know where to call.

Thanks for sharing this with us, Dale

 

This past weekend I had the pleasure of hearing Jim and Joe (mechanic who helped restore the lola) talk about their adventures on the highways of the midwest. The story about the lack of brakes did not go over well with Jim's wife

 

Zack
I'll get back with exact demensions but all of them in real life look smaller that they do in photographs. The MK-IV and the Lola are simlar but the P4 is smaller and lighter as well.

Tom
Shakedown run almost became shakedone run but as you know the key to a long marriage is not mentioning every little thing...
BTW I drove Lola up to shop last night and it ran great in the 99 deg heat.
I am also happy to report that after a bit of bleeding it even has brakes again.
Best

 

Horsefly.....

Let me throw a fly in the ointment....

Back before WWII, companies like Rolls Royce sold their cars as rolling chassis. They had no body. You purchased the car, then took it to your coachmaker of choice and had the body made to your specs.

So.... I guess ALL of those old rollers are actually replicas?

Finding any Alfa GTV that is not a replica based on Horseflys rules will be a neat trick! Most are either all bondo from the waste down or have had all the metal from the waist down replaced. Ive owned a number of those cars. NOTHING rusts like an old Alfa! (BTW: if anyone knows of a decently priced, very nice condition NOT rusty 1750 GTV I am interested....)


Terry

 

oh boy oh boy oh boy!!!!!!!!!

I had a little brake trouble in yosemite, also!

best not mentioned around the ladies, but valeria's words in the gravel runoff will ring in my ears forever:

passenger: "there's a sign pole.....try to miss it."

piloti: "it's on my list.....of 'things to do.' "

all was well, once brakes cooled off. it was a big cliff to the right!

 

J446 came as a rolling chassis as well. In 1931 Queen Marie of Yugoslavia paid 18K for it. She then had her coach-builder Franay of Paris clothe it for her for an additional 20K. In 1931 a living wage was $20 per week to give you an idea as to what 38K for a car meant in those days. I never realized my Duesey was a replica. Oh well.

 

They'll never know if you put it on Ebay. Don't even know where Yugowhatever is even though I'm sure its a neighborhood in Queens. Some wheel spinners broaden the appeal demographic as well.

 

Authenticity and originality are to some degree in the eye of the beholder.

I remember someone asking what would be a good modern tire to put on a Ferrari driver. This thread broke down into a flame war between people wanting to put modern tires on and those insisting on using original XWX's.

Those insisting on XWX's felt that the cars integrity and authenticity was compromised by using modern tires.

I think it all depends on a person’s perspective.

I watched a television program on antiques a while back. It turns out that if the original paint/finish on a piece of 18th century American furniture is removed, the value was reduced by 75% - 90%. Collectors of colonial American furniture prefer ugly original to restored. Imagine if this applied to Ferraris.

Art S. (owner of an ugly original Ferrari with modern tires)

 

Jim,

I remember you mentioning that a 917 is the ultimate machine regarding thrust. Is one of these in your future?

Art S.

 

I remember the tire discussion.... that one cracked me up! Running ancient hard as a rock compound tires, that to me are just flat dangerous in modern traffic, because its original is nuts. My Daytona is very happy on 235/60 series Yokohama AVS intermediates. They look correct and the modern levels of grip make the car even more fun to drive.

I often ask people of that frame of mind: Do you also source and use original oil? What if you owned something like a '53 340 Mexico for example. That car when new used some pretty antiquated oil. Advances in motor oil technology over the past 50 years have been nothing short of astounding. Engines today can last 500K miles or more if maintained and the oil changed. With 1950s oil technology, you were extremely lucky to get 50K miles and from a high performance car like a Ferrari you may only get 20K or less. But to be 100% original..... you should be running the correct oil as specified by the owners manual.

How about gasoline? You are running 100 octane leaded.... right? I mean really.... thats what the owners manual calls for and thats what was originally used! Dont let a little fact such as it can only be purchased at the racetrack deter you..... (and I actually dont think you can purchase real leaded gas even there).

The whole "originality" arguement can get downright silly in a hurry!


Terry

 

Pete, the 512s and their survival is even harder to follow.

70 - Scuderia Picchio Rosso of Corrado Manfredini, I PH59 p46
70/jan/31 acc. 24h Daytona Manfredini/
Moretti #30
70 - destroyed.. - frame 1022 was renumbered 1032
70/apr/25 9th 1000km Monza Manfredini/
Moretti #5
70/may/24 1st OA Trieste-Opicina hillclimb Giampiero Moretti #382 T-O p468, 469
70/jun/13-14 dnf 24h Le Mans Manfredini/
Moretti #16 FaLM p104 C74 p10
70 6th 500km Imola Manfredini/
Moretti #5
70 1st Fuji GP Manfredini/
Moretti #2
70 5th Coupe Bresil Moretti #
.. - 1050 was used as basis for tech components during "M" conversion
this is now 1050, there is no real 1022 nor 1032 anymore,
the car destoryed in the movie "Le Mans" was 1026
****** from this point on NO 1022 nor 1032 exist anymore ******

there is a replica, built in England by Michael Cane in the late 1970'S through the early 1980's
even considering the fact that is was sold by Christie's in an auction and however they represented the car and much someone paid, it is a replica
84/mar - advertised by Duncan Hamilton & Co. Ltd, Bagshot, Surrey, UK T&CC 3/84 p22
84 - Don Walker, Dallas, TX, USA
84/aug/25-26 10th Monterey Historic Races Don Walker
84/nov Atlanta Vintage GP Don Walker #6
86/may - advertised by Dallas Motorsport for $230k
8. - Ed Swart, NL
8. - Sander van der Velden, Oud Turnhout, B
8. - Fritz Kroymans, NL
89/may/02 - S - Christie's Monaco auction - $1,301,358 incl. comm.
89/may/02 - Jean Pierre van Rossem, B - "Moneytron"
99/jun/06 - S - Appelboom auction, 400.000 DM plus 16% + 21%
99/jun/06 - Marc & Claude Caveng, CH




Note: Today this is a replica which may us some correct parts (engine, transmission, etc.).

In 1970 Corrado Manfredini purchased a total of three 512 packages from Ferrari.
The first car delivered was s/n 1032, with the second being s/n 1022.
After the 1970 Daytona 24h accident, the tub from s/n 1032 was replaced with that of s/n 1022, but renumbered s/n 1032.

At that point s/n 1022 does not exists anymore.

Both cars were originally 512 S Berlinetta's. When #1022/32 was modified by the Ferrari Factory to 512 'M" specifications, chassis s/n 1050 was used as a new base for the 1022/1032 mechanical components. The 'S' version was entered in earlier races as s/n 1032, but later on as s/n 1050. Chassis s/n 1050 is the final configuration of the Scuderia Picchio Rosso Racing efforts.

At that point no 1032 does not exists anymore.

The car s/n 1032, started life as one of the 512S Berlinetta's. The car was further modified with the new 512M "wedge" style body.

the car destroyed in an accident while filming Steve McQueen's movie 'The 24 Hrs. of Le Mans' was 1026. In one of the stunts the race driver David Piper lost his leg, some sources claim wrongfull that it was in a 512 M, it happened in a stunt driving a 917 Porsche. The remains from 1026, including the engine, transmission, brakes and some of the suspension parts were joined with a newly made chassis, which is owned today be Pink Floyds drumer Nick Mason, which owns the car as of today (99-Masy-26).

Christie's claimed before the auction in May 89, incorrectly, that the chassis from #1048 was used as the base for this car. (512 "F" s/n #1048 is owned by Tom Hollfelder, USA and is a good car).

Filipinetti also had spare body panels from the 512 "F" that they had lying around. A new car was built from these panels. This new car was built in England by Michael Cane in the late 1970'S through the early 1980's. It was built with a Porsche 917 windshield, as well. It is even not a correct copy of a 512 "F" which features a solid rear wing. May be other parts from 1022/1032 may have been used.

 

The problem is that they can't be legally street driven and in the end that's what I enjoy most.
Best

 

Jim.

The car is magnificent!

I hope to be able to take you up on your invitation soon.

Keep us posted on its progress, the pictures always help to tell the story,

Dave

 

Oh, i'm sorry, i thought we were all interested in the history of the Ferrari CARS, not the history of some corporation in Italy... Who cares if the factory didn't authorize a rebody or that a car was modified for a race by the private owner... They're still Ferraris and these different things are part of their history... Why does the buck stop with the factory...? Should we change the name of this site to FactoryChat...? It's problems like this that keep unbelievable cars like 2819 from being eligible for concours... So what if the factory didn't authorize the rebody... So what if a private owner did things to it... How come a 360 is still a 360 after someone puts an aero body kit and a wing on it but a short wheelbase is no longer a Ferrari at all because someone decides it'd be better to extend the roofline...?

There's so much more history in the cars AFTER they've left the factory so why do we focus on factory factory factory...? It makes no sense... It's mind sets just like yours that will keep cars like 0262MM from fetching more money at the Auction in Monterey this year because of the controversy over its authenticity because of its restoration; but if it weren't for the restoration, the car wouldn't even exist...

 

Just curious, why can't you drive a 917 on the street, when the Lola and 330 are registered?

Again, thanks for sharing. Magnificent beasts.

-Dean

 

But NOT EXACTLY 100% correct, eh Jim ?
As I’ve said many times before in these threads (ad nauseum) – if this car was being restored as ‘#0846’, then surely it should have P3/4 Spyder bodywork and not P4 Berlinetta.
If it is being restored as a ‘1967 Ferrari 330P4’, then there are other incorrect details:
Like a (prototype ?) ‘66 P3 gearbox - not the correct later (Type 603R) ’67 P4 gearbox;
Then there’s the issue of the wheels, too – recast in the incorrect (15” rear) 350 Can-Am sizes;
Apart from that later David Piper-sourced interior trim (which in ’67 was Black leathercloth with Red seat inserts,) the steering wheel is incorrect for a 1967 P4 – It should of course be a 4-bolt fixing Momo ‘Monza’ – not the 6-bolt fixing Momo ‘Prototipo’ shown in earlier photos.
Oh Yes, and are you planning to have some new exhaust headers made up in the correct (see photos of #0856) style to replace those currently removed ?
So lots still to do yet, before Monterey in mid-August, then Jim ….

Not very original either then ! Still think (IMHO) it looks extremely nice though, Jim ….

 

And can I lick your garage floor clean too Jim? LOL

 

Paul.

You can really be a horse's arse.

Maybe, just maybe, a little less sarcasm/arrogance would help your cause.

As you know, I've been open minded on this, listened to your explanations, seen your emails, etc., and, just when I think it's safe to go back in the water................... you post this.

Dave

 

This is my take on this subject of the authenticity of 0846, someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but if the email sent to P4Replica by P4racer is true, then Max is a thief and Piper is a fraud (just by what Max said in the email) With the ammount of .5 Mil at stake this would seem pretty serious. Since Piper hasn't been posting anything on FChat, I can see him saying that Max is lieing and then it would be just Max on trial for theft. Now, Max wants that email taken off pretty bad, so he's either stretched the truth or wants to do away with incriminating evidence.
If you take this one step further, since P4replica knew of this crime over a year ago and had ample time to report it, (at least to Jim) instead of antagonizing him, does that make him an accesory(sp?) after the fact?
If I were P4Replica I would be hoping that Jim's car was in fact 0846 or I would be writing out a big check as a retainer for my lawyer because I think his troubles have only begun.
As far as Horsefly goes, he's basing his opinion mostly on what P4replica has told him, this might be a case where the crew goes down with the captian.
We'll just have to see.

 

No fly in the ointment at all on this once. As you said yourself, COMPANIES like Rolls Royce SOLD THEIR CARS AS ROLLING CHASSIS. So this IS the way that the factory sold the cars. Therefore, the cars left the factory without any bodies on them.

So where are the photographs of truckloads of Ferraris leaving the factory WITHOUT their bodies on their way to a NON-FACTORY assembly line? Now don't get wise and start saying that truckloads of un-bodied Ferraris were shipped to Scaglietti or Fantuzi or Zagato to have their bodies installed. Many of those were FACTORY AUTHORIZED conversion projects. So where where the truckloads of Ferrari chassis shipped to for their NON-FACTORY rebody operations like the Rolls Royce chassis? I don't think that there was such a place. I don't think Ferrari would have tolerated sending their chassis and engine combos to another factory to have some sort of unapproved body installed on the cars like a common dump truck or school bus body.

So therefore, the comparison to Rolls Royce is not valid.

 

Paul

when your case of cranial rectal disorder clears up you might remember that Jim got both Spyder bodywork and P4 Berlinetta bodywork from piper...

Oh it has been a long long thread and discussion....

To all the boosters and doubters

I know there is going to be no satisfying any side on this. It is not up to us to do so. I know also that I am nowhere near qualified to comment on the authenticity issues but I also know that only 2 or 3 (possibly 5) are.

Horsefly, P4 and all those who doubt, lighten up you all come off sounding like it some moral imperative for you to "Out" jim for the blasphemy of doing what i am sure you all would love to do. that is Restoring a beautiful car and using it as intended. Regardless of the bloodline and the history of the P in Jim's collection of special vehicles he has done a remarkable job.

Pete and NNO and others, as we have seen there is no satisfying these guys unless Enzo himself rises up from the grave and appears in ghostly vision to Horsefly to tell him "SHADDUPPA YOU FACE, That is the car we built... " but then i am sure Horsefly would say "Hey that was a replica of Enzo the real Enzo wasn't translucent..."

 

Because of emission and Vehicle safety requirements that went into effect after 1967 are are required on cars mfg'd after that date.

 

Hey Jim,

WHEN Will The issue of CAVILLINO spotlighting your P4 be out....?
Should be an instant Sellout..."The Greatest Story Ever Told!"
Who wouldn't agree?

Regards , Michael