very cool picture of Gordon himself. question for those who have had the pleasure of sitting or driving in one - the mirror, which I'm sure is offset, how difficult is it to read the rear view? it almost looks like it's in front of Gordon's face from the awkward angle.
That's angled for UK driving where pic were shot. Jon it's a great car and the one I drove felt like more of a car than a race car compared with the MK-IV on the raod. It feels more car like than the Enzo to me as well and I liked the ground clearance better than the Enzo.
There's two interior rear view mirrors, one on each side. It's the angle of the pic that makes it look like the mirror is in front of Gordon Murray's face. It's actually off to one side, and if you look for it, you can see the other mirror as well. To be honest, rear visibility is only OK from the interior mirrors. But the exterior mirrors work just fine, and because of where you are seated, there is a much smaller blind spot than there is on the driver's side in a conventional car.
Well, my poll is closed, and I must say, I am pretty surprised at the results, considering this is a Ferrari board! Having driven an Enzo, I know what it is all about. The McLaren is a car I would love to drive, the most curious aspect of the car being its central driving position. I will probably never get that opportunity, though. I have never even seen a McLaren in real life, but in photos, it doesn't look like it has any bad angles. The Enzo is as striking, especially in person. I will take the extra 10 years of technology in the Enzo as my choice, but would happily take a McLaren if that was my only choice!
If you ever have the opportunity to drive the F1, just remember to watch the curbs when you are turning left. Turning right is no problem whatsoever but the curb will come up real quickly on the left when turning from a one-way street left onto another one-way.
Dan, Great post. Brought out some good debate. No doubt about it the Enzo is a great car I doubt anyone here would be disappointed in one. And I doubt that anyone would get out of an F1 and think it was either far superior or far inferior to the Enzo. It all comes down to personal taste and choice. The fact that the F1 won LeMans and the fact that only 100 were built and the fact that it was designed by a famous F1 designer gives it the nod for my choice. The half dozen or so F1's that I have seen looked smaller than it did in the magazine pictures and while I like the styling it is rather bland compared to the Enzo and the F50 but in the end styling was only one area that would make my purchase decision. Audiguy, Below is a picture of the JJ Lehto LeMans F1 car. PTG Racing which runs all those awesome M3's in ALMS and Speedvision has their race shop about 45 minutes from my house. They are responsibly for BMW NA's vintage race car collection and this car is one of them. Last year I got to sit in the car while they fired it up in the garage. Sounded unbelievable. Regards, Jon Image Unavailable, Please Login
I had the pleasure of having a stint in a F355 Challenge car with Eliot Forbes Robinson at the wheel. On a track he had never driven, in a car he had never driven, on dunlops with 15 heat cycles, his reconesance laps were only 2 seconds off the trace record {TWS tr: 1:52.X EFR 1:54.x} for a F355 Challenge cars! Later that day, I had a stint in that car and did 1:58s compated to the 2:10s I could do in my street bone stock F355 with street tires (S03s). And I have over 1,500 laps on that track. EFR found several new lines through several corners that allowed him to lap faster than I following the 'instructors lines'. EFR was so gentle with the car that it was hard to believe that it was lapping so quickly! Since this lesson, and by following some of his input, I have dropped into the 2:05 range still on street tires (S03s). But, I could put another 1,500 laps and never get within 2 seconds of him driving at 10/10s!!! in equivalent cars. On the other hand, I am now routinely lapping 360F1s with r-compound tires at TWS in my lowly F355B M6 on streets. The 360F1 should be 4-5 sec/lap faster, the r-compounds should be another 4-5 sec/lap.
Mitch, Michael Galati, multiple Speed World Challenge Champion (Real Time Acuras and Audi S4/S6's) and multiple SCCA run-offs champion drove my car at Summit Point for a 30 minute session. He too had never been there. First 10 laps or so my friend timed him at about 6 second off my pace. About 10 minutes into the session he looked over at me and aksed if I wanted him to drive a bit harder, and I said go for it drive it as hard as he felt comfortable. Next 7 or 8 laps he was doing 2-3 second off my pace and by the last few laps was running equal lap times. I am less than a second off Ferrari Challenge Champion Jim Kenton's track record there in a 355 C and I know that Michael could beat that record with some practice. One thing I hear from people that I think is somewhat incorrect, is people saying well you've had 1000 laps there, he's only had a day. If he had that many laps ................ They are missing the point entirely. What takes me 1000 laps or 20 + track days wouldn't be needed by a professional. Look at all the F1 drivers who have never seen a track before and are up to pace in a few practice sessions. Perfect example was Boris Said running a BMW M3 GTR at the 24 Hours of the Nurburgring. At the end of the race weekend he was only 1 1/2 slower than Hans Stuck, his team mate, who owns the Ring. And the Ring is no 2 mile go kart track, it's 14 miles. Yeah some of us amatuers can match the pro's lap times but we work like a dog to do it and screw up four prior laps getting there. The pro's don't even think about it and get out of the car looking like they just took a well rested nap. The ironic thing about Galati is that I tried to ask him about things he was doing in the car and he said he couldn't honestly remember doing them. He trailed braked amazingly late in one corner being on the brakes and the gas simulaneously but when I asked him about it he said it's all feel and subconscious input. Regards, Jon
Jon, I worked with BMW for 17 years before going to Ferrari and when the M3 lightweights first came out I was working thru PTG to get two of them for the Risi Comp guys to run. That deal never made as the 348 Challenge started soon thereafter and they started putting their efforts there and then the 333SP. The guys at PTG are a class group of people. Thanks for the picture. My sons name is JJ and he asked me if I named him after JJ Lehto. He asked me that we he was 6 years old(13 years old now). He did not stop to think that my first name and middle initial are J and J and possibly he could be named after me............:>(
The drivers of the quality level we are talking about have tens of thousands of laps (maybe millions of laps) at all kinds of race tracks and all kinds of cars. Their brains are filled with the memories of what many cars can and can't do; what lines work and what don't, what traction looks and feel like from the texture of the road. This gives them an inherent mental insight to find lines, adjust speeds, and waste less time per lap. What takes us days to learn is mearly instinctive to them. What we may never be able to figgure out, takes them a couple of full on practice sessions. Back at TWS, EFR takes an unusual line into T1, never really braking at all, just a moderate 10%- trail braking for over 1/4 mile in a big arc, ending up at the exact right point into T2 at the highest speed the car can carry: on the SECOND lap! When I figgured out this line I dropped 2 seconds off my previous best. Its scarry, has no margin for error, runs over a lower traction surface, but it lets you carry your 150 MPH speed off the banking and casually scrub it down to 98 for entry into T2. So, after running 15 laps with EFR it only took me anothe 100 laps to find this line! He had already found it by the second lap--in-frigging-credible.
Rode with Anthony Lazarro at TWS in a 360 Challenge with passenger seat added. He took a different line thru T1 than anyone else. He stayed high until almost at the corner and then came down low instead of entering it low after dropping down further down the straight. He said it allowed a much better entry into T2. Never braked at all. Rolled my sock right down................Apparently no one else was willing to try this line as he was the only one there that day that did.........
i met Anthony... Really nice guy... Didn't have a chance to score a ride with him, though; must've been exhilerating...
Flatoutracing, I know that what I know its completely acurate. I didnt see the videos and will not see them anyways but thanks for your time for posting them. Your private message tells me that if can't take heat chatting across a computer then in a race you are a dangerous person. How can you cope with the normal stress in fast driving and racing? Learn to control your emotions and you also seem to be a compulsive person, even when I ignored your postings because I can care less of a pissing contest than you have to private message me! I will not post again about this subject, so if you feel like you want to have the last word then go ahead and be predictive, but know that human traits come across in all areas of life and that will show in the track also. A preditive driver gets overtaken by the competition without much trouble. So think about it anf as I always ment to say, keep those Ferraris safe. As above so bellow and please just don't hurt yourself. Was that ending predictable? Maybe, but it was planned that way from the begining, ciao!
Testacojones, shouldn't you be screwing your 17-year-old cousin right about now? I think you should quit while you can, otherwise Jon Kofod will make you his Ferrarichat B1tch.
Oh TestycAhones or whatever, My how you like to throw around the psycholgy. Have you just started taking your first course in it in high school? I think that maybe you should know of which you speak before you open your mouth and let you true intellect spill out. I personally would like to know where you get your vast amount of knowledge that you try to force on the rest of us. Tell us, have you ever competed in a real race other than on PS2? Have you spent some seat time behind the wheel against fellow racers and seen what real driving is??? If you have not, I would suggest that you do not lecture the rest of us on it. If you will check it out, Jon has many, many hours of driving and until you jumped in purposefully to try to raise his ire, he is always even keeled on this forum. I do not believe you ever intended to really contribute to this discussion but rather to jump in and stir things up. I personally am glad that you will not be posting on this subject again. It just frees up more bandwidth for something more useful. Jon, Keep the wheels rightside up and enjoy.................................
Don't want to join in on this pissing match but it sounds as though you haven't met Jon or been in Ferrarichat very long. I met Jon at the track last year and he has been very helpful in helping me search for a 348 Challenge spending at least a couple of hours on the phone with me and pointing me towards Ferrarichat. He also got me a pit pass for the Daytona 24 hour race next week where his teammate is racing a Porsche. He seems like a standup person from what I know if him. I spent 20 minutes with Jon hitting well over 150 mph in traffic surrounded by other Challenge cars and he never gave me any impression that he couldnt cope with the stress of fast driving or that he was dangerous. Quite the opposite. Over the course of the two days I was at the track with him he must have given at least a dozen people rides with people standing in line to get a ride. There were F40's and all sorts of other high dollar race machinery present but the line for rides was for Jon's 355 Challenge. I doubt he is dangerous or people wouldnt ride with him. Hes not out for a Sunday drive in his car. Watch some of his videos on Ferrarichat and you might change your mind. I have also seen him race in his SRF a few times and again no indication he is dangerous so I think your assessment is a bit off. But then again I doubt you were making an educated assessment, but rather as you stated it, starting a pissing contest. Andrew
Fast4door and audiguy, please stick to your thing, you don't know who I am, so coming to judge me over the computer is pretty inmature and it seems like you suffer of finger diarreah over your keyboard, if you were this slippery on the violin then you would be truly a couple of virtuosos, I can hear that legato, damn Nicolo Paganini wouldnt touch you tough guys, strong like a bull aren't you... '..'
Testacojones, I merely assumed that since you have only posted 38 times that you only log on every few days and figured the post would be gone by then and I really did want to know your source. Here is a copy of my PM to you: In regards to the Enzo vs. F1 debate you never responded back to my ????'s. I was wondering where you got your facts that the Enzo could do 250 mph if they wanted it too and you was wondering if you had actually driven in an F1 to be able to make the claim it was unstable at 200 mph or could point me to someone other than a magazine tester who made such claim. You seemed pretty hostile towards me, not sure why, but maybe you ought to know a little more about the person you try to insult (flatassracing, and don't hurt yourself). Might want to go back to the post and read up on your figures for the GT1, they are for the 98 GT1 which only one was built. By the way I also owned a TR at one point. END OF PM (not sure why you think this is a pissing match) As for your neat little trick of trying to shut me up and get the last word. Well you blew that one didnt you (seems you are compulsive). I know exactly what you were trying to do before you reposted! If I post back with the last word then you can make me look like some infantile kid who has to have the last word and if I heed your advice then you have effectively shut me up. Thanks for breaking the rules of your own game and posting back. I was having a polite debate with people on this site until you made your derogatory statements towards me. Youre the one who needs to learn to control his emotions; I am not the one who made deragatory statements calling you names. It looks like you are the one who cant take the heat when someone calls your facts/opinions into question you start calling people names like some 5th grader. I get really sick of people not backing what they say up with facts. We have kids on F Chat stating they own Pagani Zondas, people making all sorts of stupid claims about how fast the driven a car, and then people like you who state they know the internal politics at the Ferrari factory and their thinking yet when I asked you who you talked to at Ferrari or where you say an Enzo go 250 mph you couldnt respond. You also claim the F1 is unstable at 200. All I asked for was who told you this or if this was from personal experience? As for my track driving and being dangerous. Get real, you ever been on the track in your 328 or TR? Your stupid statement about being predictable shows you have never been on a track before and understand nothing about racing. The most important thing on the track is that YOU are predictive; otherwise you are an extreme danger to everyone on the track. Its the first thing they teach in a racing school or at a track event. Hold the line, stay on line and be predictive. You statement shows complete ignorance of the subject that even the most wet behind the ears beginner would know after his first ever track session. I guess this post shows what you use your Ferrari for, despite your claim to the contrary. Enzo would be sad indeed http://ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=39439#post39439 You can be guaranteed I WON'T POST AGAIN ON THIS SUBJECT !!!!!! Ciao to you !! Jon
Strong like a bull??? I don't think so. I also do not come onto a link to attack someone who is only sharing information. If my information is different from the other persons, I would like to know where the differing information comes from so that if I am wrong (and I will accept being wrong) I can make a change. I do not sense this in you. No, I do not know you and only base what I say by the posts that you make, exposing your true personality. And your reference to music on this post??????????? Do you actually have violin experience so you can make assumptions about abilities?? You do not know me either, so do not make any judgments about me. I have been around the block a few times and have experience in a lot of areas that you do not know about. And I still pose the question to you. Do you actually have seat time in a race car or are you just espousing of your opinions?? Have you ever entered into a motorized competition of any type?? If you do not have the experience to make these observations, please keep your judgments to yourself. If you have done these things tell us about that. We would love to hear and maybe learn something.
Popped back in to see the latest tally... and I find this horrible drivel... Teenycajones, you do realize you are attacking two of the most respected members of FerrariChat in Jon and James, right? You do realize that if your rhetorical BS succeeds in frustrating them into participating here less, then your negative impact to this site will be permanently in the red. In contrast, your past posts have been nearly annoying enough to get you on my Ignore list... these have sealed it. Based on your posts to date, I don't expect you'll ever contribute anything worthwhile. Do us ALL a favor, prove me wrong... or leave.
Too many people say McLaren, having never driven one. I drove one about 400feet off a trailer to a closed studio, and back on the truck. I don't have any desire to drive an Enzo, nor own a McLaren. That said, like most people in this thread, I'd be talking out my ass to say one over the other. You people (that have not driven both on equal footing) are all armchair generals.
Why don't you have a desire to drive an Enzo? That's a weird thing to say! I have a desire to drive any supercar, even ones rumored to be not so great. Are you saying if someone handed you the keys, you would say, "no thanks." ?
