Driving someone else's car on the track

One thing being totally overlooked here is the "probability" of crashing someone's car. What I am about to state applies to your own car at the track as well.

I tell people it's like investing in the stock market and keep in mind I am an ex-trader and ex-fund manager. If you can't afford to loose your money don't invest it. PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

Same goes for the track, whether your car or someone else's. If you can't afford to write a check for the entire worth of the car then don't drive it. Either yours or theirs.

I hear people say really stupid things like "....well I am not pushing it hard, or I am just here to have fun and I am not going to drive that fast....".

Stupid, stupid, stupid. A friend of mine was doing less than 35 mph at Summit down the main straight in his 355 C one morning attempting to bed in brake pads. It was cold and slightly damp. He got a bit side ways and got one rear tire off the edge of the track.

He ended up hitting an embankment and rolling the car. This was at less than 50 mph on a straight we've both taken at well over 150 mph.

You can be going 40 mph down the infamous turn 4 chute at Summit but if that Porsche Cup car just laid down 11 quarts of oil you and your car are toast. You hit oil in the uphill esses at the Glen and your going to become a pinball.

I had the opportunity a few years ago to drive a 333SP, my ultimate dream car. The owner said I could drive it for one session no strings attached. It took less than a few seconds to decline the offer. I simply couldn't write a check for $500,000 if the car was a total loss.

As for driving a car at 6 or 7th tenths what's the point if you are confident in your own abilities and have the skill to drive 10/10ths. As Lolaman stated, if you are a seasoned racer or instructor you drive at 10/10ths all the time. You either can or can't drive at that level, it's not an occasional thing. Those who are skilled at driving 10/10ths can drive at 11/10 th's and keep bringing the car back.

I have over 30 hours of testing in a friend's two 80K Radicals. I've never driven them at less than 10/10th's because I have both the skill and the funds to pay for a total loss.

Not the case with the 333SP.

Bottom Line is that you shouldn't drive any car that you can't walk away from a total loss and afford to do so.

As for smooth being fast..........well that a whole 'nother topic I won't even begin to get started on !

 

11/10th's?

sounds like Spinal Tap, "but this one goes to 11, it's one louder you see..."

Probably semantics but I usually found 9.5-10/10th's in qualifying and later race laps. Race pace usually 9/10th's-ish to save brakes/tires/engine for later. But that was Neck-car late models....

I completely agree that if you can't afford it don't drive it. I have stacked them on warm up laps on cold tires and under caution. Stupid stuff happens...

 

First, i aint kissing Rob's tuckas but i gotta say this. Agree 100% with the above. Most of you know i am a newbie and taking my time to learn the lines, technique, etc. and post videos here so others can HELP ME to get better. have experienced about 8 different instructors over the years...

One instructor gave me pretty much zero input for both days of the event, but a ride along in his Porsche and i felt like we were going to die. He is a great driver, but even in hindsight it was too much on the needle's edge considering he had a passenger aboard (and he almost 'lost it' a few times on the track. All i could think of was the Fcar guy who passed away in a ride along in a Porsche 2 years back).

Most instructors are great, awesome, and truly amazing guys with loads of patience. They are very helpful, have tact, and allow for working on sections of a track to eventually get the whole package together.

Rob, spot on about "You have to feel the line and G's first hand." At Watkins Glen there were two spots where i could not quite 'get' what my instructor was desiring. He drove an older M3 and took me out in his car for a few laps. After only lap 1 i 'got it' because i could FEEL it, though the other few laps helped to 'fine-tune' the visuals for me.

Again, color me a complete newbie and do not mind the occasional instructor hoping aboard even on tracks i DO know. As Rob says, "No matter how good or fast, there is always faster" and there is always room to grow and learn.

BTW: what data acquisition system do you use Rob?

And lastly, agree some drivers shouldn’t be tracking their own car. May i leave it at that without needing Nomex? Just that some things i have seen newbie drivers (usually male, early 20's) do at the track...

 

I agree completely with you. There is always a better lap out there, that is what keeps you coming back! I think we are all talking the same thing here, but our numbering schemes may be different...

 

What is a ODB system?

Well, not in my car so i guess gps may be the way to go.

 

Yep. When I describe the "tenths" system to people, it usually goes like this.

3/10 is driving on a flat, straight and level road with no distractions.

4/10 is driving on a gently curving Interstate with low traffic density at a higher rate of speed than 3/10.

5/10 is driving quickly, but efficiently and at the speed limit on the street, more concentration required due to more "hazards" present.

6/10 is a standard DE lap or an out lap early on in a race weekend for me. The purpose may be to refamiliarize myself with the race track, enjoy a relaxed lap or just "cruise" around and, in particular, designed to take NOTHING out of the car. This is also the level of driving quickly on the Interstate with a fair bit of traffic at higher speeds.

7/10 is a more aggressive DE level, designed to begin to "move the car around" and just a little more taxing on the car. Also, an out lap later on in a race weekend. Usually the result of greater confidence and familiarity. Relatively wide variation in lap time depending on traffic and concentration.

8/10 is an easily sustained level, requiring high levels of concentration, generally attained after the first few laps of a race or enduro when the dust settles and you slide into driving quickly and accurately, but are not locked in a battle that is external to you and your car. The car is sliding, but only at the beginning or the end of a corner and not at all corners and not on all laps. Generally laps are within .6-1.0 apart and relatively consistent. This is the level I am most comfortable taking people around the track. Plenty of "headroom" and margin for error or changeable track conditions.

9/10 is driving pretty hard, but is sustainable, repeatable and the driver is still relatively accurate in their placement of the car. The car is now sliding much of the time, the driver is focused on catching someone or staying ahead of someone but is maintaining control and discipline of their mind and of the car. At this point, the driver is using most of the width of the road, but not much curbing, and is focusing on drawing large arcs with the path of the car. The rhythm is such that the lap times are generally within .2 -.6 apart, barring traffic or mistakes. This is my limit for one or two "hot laps" with someone riding with me.

9.5/10 is driving hard. More sliding, slightly quicker laps still than at 9/10. Less margin for error, a lot more work being done by the car. The driver is now "guiding" the car on a path selected well in advance. The car is sliding from turn-in, through the apex and is using the entire width of the paved track, plus the inside curbs. Cannot generally be sustained for more than five or six laps. I would not drive a car at this level with a passenger in it...

10/10 is when the skill level of a substantially experienced and supremely confident driver meets the competence level of the car nearly perfectly. The car is sliding nearly the entire lap. Slip angles of 7-12 degrees (DOT radials, less on radial slicks) are sustained through the entire length of most of the corners. The entire width of the road, plus the inside and outside (if available) curbing or pavement extensions are used, every corner, every lap. The previous lap is at 9 or 9.5/10 so that the "hot" lap is started at the greatest possible speed and with the highest possible concentration. Typically, I drive 10/10's for one or two qualifying laps and my first few laps of the race to build a "gap" to the rest of the competition. I also drive 10/10's to experiment with changes made to the car or to evaluate tires in practice, not to mention putting in a "flyer" to achieve the psychological advantage of being on or near the top of the time sheet <grin>. I may not do this more than a few laps during the weekend, but I pick and choose the time to do it. I feel like the car and I are balanced on a tightrope and I am constantly making tiny little corrections to adjust it's trajectory, with each correction making a difference... I'm not sure this level can be sustained more than two or three laps at a time. In order to be successful at the highest level of most organized competition, you must be able to drive at this level.

11/10's is when your talent runs out! <very big grin>

Just my .02

YMMV

Steven, OBD II is "On Board Diagnostics", not generally available until mandated by the Government for new model year 1996 and later cars. Would recommend the GPS-based Traqmate or the Race Technology DL-1.

-Peter

 

Usually followed by expensive crunching noises

 

This was a very interesting read thank you! I myself being only 17 would love to drive a friends Formula V and many other cars for sure.

 

If Steve is a newbie I don't know what that makes me, but here goes: As a veteran of no less than three (3) track events, I value the sensory input that comes from having my own car driven at a level beyond my own current capabilities. It makes finding the car's limits easier, and lets me focus more on finding mine.

My vast experience also includes only instructors who were very familiar with Ferraris - in one case the instructor owned a 456 himself. I wouldn't be averse to letting an instructor who wasn't familiar with my car drive it at 6/10 to show me the line, track landmarks, etc., but I would expect him not to push it. And I would never lend my car to anyone who "just wanted to find out what 12 in front feels like in the corners." It feels like a handful, 'kay?

Ron

 

Sounds like a plan! Just make sure your 6/10 is their 6/10! <grin>

-Peter (my 6/10 is like a lot of less experienced folks 8/10, but they relax and are comfortable because I'm relaxed and am comfortable...<very big grin>)

 

really have to agree with that one.

I track at least once a month. Each time , I will wear out a pair of tyres. Wear
out as in they're no longer useable.

My very FIRST time on a track (any track) , was with a friend driving MY new
car. He was experienced and knew the track well and it was a revelatory
experience in what a car and G's is capable of. In hindsight , he probably only
took it to 7/10 , but to me , then , 7/10 was like WOW.

at our last t/day , I broke my personal rule and took two guys out for a ride
in my car. I was doing , maybe , 7-8/10 for the two laps (an out and a real
lap) that I spent with both fellows. They were like going gaga in the car.

I have to agree again that everyone's 7/10 , 8/10 ... whatever ... is different.
And any driver who has not tracked will have absolutely NO APPRECIATION of
what it is to really push a car to its and the driver's limits.

I still thank my friend for my very first ride on a track. There is no substitute
for a good driver taking you out and showing you what the brakes/Gs are
about.

cheers and good discussion.

.

 

Choogle a lot more and you can take me for a ride in your Ferraris...

 

I try to avoid anyone on the track in an unfamiliar car. Even if they are leaving a margin for error, how are they going to react when they hit an oil spot? If the car isn't second nature, there is a lot that you are missing in the 'reserve' department. I don't care how good a driver you are.

Also, in many states there is a theory of liabilty called 'negligent entrustment' which can make you liable for injury to another. Releases don't usually cover negligence, so beware, you could be liable for that pilot's error. How would you like to cover your car and medicals, another guys car and medicals, not to mention consequentials! Ya, it could get very expensive. Bottom line, I don't let anyone drive my car on the track and wouldn't recommend you doing so. Go to driver's school for lessons.

 

Guess you missed the <wink>, am very familiar with ODB. MANY THANKS for the gps suggestions and those are the 2 systems i have been looking at. They are both excellent it seems. Was doing research a few months back on both of them and because this is my Bday month am pooling all gift funds and buying one today.

As i recall, one has video overlay and the other did not (months ago). i liked the one with removable memory card, but as i recall it did not offer video overlay. Anywho, don't wanna threadjack.

MANY thanks for the suggestions as ALL help is ALWAYS appreciated.

 

Ron, after over 40 track days under my bealt the more i realize that there are guys with amazing talent and experience. Call myself a newbie as only now am really starting to go deeper into trusting the car's ability and gaining ability myself. Perhaps i am a slowish learner, though would rather beging cautiously and build up at a steady pace. Add to that the third generation suspesnion tweaks (further uprated springs, beefier and adjustable sways) so am also tuning the car to some degree depending on the track. Have a book with pages and pages of logs/records with equip temps, air pressure changes and the results, etc. for datamining. So maybe yes, am doing quite a bit and perhaps this is slowing my 'just sit in it and drive' thing, though can also recall data from previous runs and see what seemed to 'work' and what did not.

All in all it is not 'easy' per se, yet am glad to be learning and moving towards faster lap times. At the recent Lime Rock event two weeks ago two different guys said i am really doing well, and they also said my logging/etc seemed too professional for being a "blue run group" (intermediate) guy.

Guess what i am saying is take your time and really like what you said, "I value the sensory input that comes from having my own car driven at a level beyond my own current capabilities. It makes finding the car's limits easier, and lets me focus more on finding mine."

BTW: attached are two sheets i use as logs. Feel free to print many copies and fill in the blanks after each session if you desire.
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