412P and P4 question

This might sound pretty silly question, but what are the differances between the two above, because I have read a few Ferrari books and some pictures appear in multiple books and some authors refer to the one car in one book as a P4 and the others refer to the same car as a 412P.

Is there in fact any mechanical or styling differances between the two models or is the 412P merely a evolution of the P4?

I have wondered about this for some time and havent been able to find any definte answers anywhere.

 

In 1966 three 330 P3s were built and raced by the factory: s/n 0844, 0846 and 0848. In 1966 there were also two 412 Ps built: 0850 and 0854. They were customer cars raced by teams like Ecurie Francorchamps.
In 1967 s/n 0844 and 0848 were converted to 412 Ps. 0846 was converted to a 330 P4 (also known as 330 P3/4). Three new 330 P4s were built: 0856, 0858 and 0860, all factory cars.

There are detail body differences between 1966 and 1967 cars as well as between 330 P4 and 412 P cars (noticably head lights and air intakes respectively). The factory cars had fuel injection, the customer cars carburettors.

Anyone correct me if I'm wrong.

Best, Peter

p.s s/n 0852 was a 206 SP later renumbered s/n 002

 

As Peter has pointed out the main difference is the engine. They are quite different. The 412P is basically a P3 engine with Carbs instead of FI. P 3 block and heads (2 valve).

P4's and P 3/4 0846 were fitted with P4 engines. Unique blocks, 3 valve heads, and FI. The blocks have different engine mounting points.

You may find this interesting which touches on this subject which as an aside will soon be updated with some information that will not make everyone happy. Some may wish to gather their loved ones...

http://www.glickenhaus.com/jim/project.pdf

(0850 and 0854 were built in 67 on P3 chassis. 0844, 0846, and 0848 in 66 on P3 chassis. 0856, 0858, and 0860 in 67 on P4 chassis. The chassis are an other difference in addition to the engines between 412P's, P4's, and of course P 3/4 0846 which as we all know was built on a P3 chassis converted by Ferrari in 67 to accept a P4 engine.)

Ferrari P 4/5 by Pininfarina is of course something quite different all together...
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I love this picture Jim ! Sorry for off topic question , but do you keep only 3 cars in your home garage ?

 

4 collector 2 daily drivers

 

Thanks for the explantions, which are by far the best I have read, makes the whole chain of car much easier for me to understand and I can know see how disputes around these car can occur....

What amazes me about both the P4 and 412P is the shape and design of the bodies, I mean to create these shapes must have taken true craftsman..

 

Napolis:

Sorry to go a bit off topic, but can you indicate the manufacturer of your lift system? It appears there are no posts and that the platform is held, lowered and elevated from the top with the wires. I'd appreciate it if you could let me know who makes that system.

BTW, thanks for being so open about your collection, the work on your cars, your participation in motoring events, etc. I'm in the silent majority that do not typically chime in, but truly appreciate your willingness to share.

Thanks.
Alberto

 

I 2nd this, I dont also chime in all that often but its really cool for those of us that dont know as much about this classics to learn from people that have worked on them and driven them.

 

Well they say, we learn something new every day. Thank you bigodino, Napolis.

Like Ferrari 360 CS, I second this notion as well. These P racers are achingly beautiful and extremely potent all at the same time.

 

I stand under correction but werent the panels on these P races created by artisans using hammers and the like to generate these shapes. I have seen a P4 replica but it cant possibly be the same as seeing a true orginal....

 

Some other differences between 412 P and 330 P4 at the beggining of 1967 :
412 P :
gearbox : ZF
wheels : square holes,
rear disc brakes : onboard.

330 P4 :
gearbox : Ferrari
wheels : Campagnolo star shape,
rear disc brakes : in the wheels.
lenght : + 1,5 cm
width : + 3 cm
hight : + 5 cm

I think Fantuzzi and Scaglieti made most of the P cars, from 275 P to 330 P4.
Am I right ?

 

Hi

Thanks!

My lift system was designed by me and a consulting engineer. It was custom manufactured. It's pretty cool. Computer controlled. Safetied, you can't lower it onto a car or a person and it can hold massive weight.

Basically you need an engineer who designs and builds commercial parking systems and it can get expensive fast.

Yes the alloy P4 panels were hand formed/hammered over wooden bucks.

Drove 002C 100 miles through the New York Fall. A bit cold but what a drive.
Averaged 12 MPG. Stopped at a photo studio for a few shots for "Vintage MotorSports".

Best
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You did it again JIm ....great shots ! Love this kind of standart home picture !

 

Drogo made the P4. The panel beater was Allegretti.

The wheel base of the P3/412P is 2412. The wheelbase of the P4 is 2400.

A small but important difference.

Best

 

It has been my personal theory that after Chinnetti/NART won LeMans in 1965 Ferrari never again supplied anyone with the same equipment as the factory team had.
P2s all had the 4 cam 3.3 liter motors removed and 4.4 liter 2 cam motors installed.
P3 & 4s had their fuel injected motors removed and carburetted versions installed and sold as 412Ps, which in my opinion were essentially customer cars.
Franchorchamps got #0850 at Daytona in 1967 instead of a P4.
NART did get a 312P, which was never successful or reliable but was never given a 312PB. Wayne Sparling took the drivetrain and suspension from the 312P and constructed NART's verison of a PB as a result.
It was not until the PBs were retired that Ferrari "gifted" 312PB #0900 to Marion Chinetti that one left the factory stable. IMHO.
David

 

" P3 & 4s had their fuel injected motors removed and carburetted versions installed and sold as 412Ps, which in my opinion were essentially customer cars."

Not exactly. The P3's had their Fuel Injection removed and replaced with carbs. The P3 blocks and heads remained with 0844 and 0848 when they were turned over to customers in 67.

P 4 0856's motor was not changed when it was lent to Franchorchamps for Le Mans 67.

Basically I agree that the factory didn't want it's customers to beat it.

Best

 

P4 0856 was not lent to Francorchamps for Le Mans 1967.
The Francorchamps car was P4 0858.

Jay D. Felter

 

Not if the original Le Mans documents that I have are to be believed.

http://www.barchetta.cc/german/pirro/Galleries.Eventi/Schlegelmilch/B_1.htm

 

The 2 daily drivers, I know one is the Maser coupe, but what is the other?

 

Wife has a Turbo Cayenne.

 

Internal racing logs provided to me by the Ferrari Factory tell a different story. I have copies of the technical data and technical specification sheets for each race that P4 0856 took part in, as well as internal notes written during the preparation of the car.

It has been written for years that P4 0856 was lent to Francorchamps,
but that is not in fact the case.

Jay D. Felter

 

Jay

I'll check the original Le Mans documents I have tonight but as they were confirmed during Tech inspection and are signed by the Marshals I tend to beleive they are correct.

Are you saying 0856 wasn't the #24 car with the yellow stripe and that the # 24 car with the yellow stripe was 0858? I know the person who painted on the yellow stripe and the one with the yellow stripe was defineately the Francorchamps car and the Francorchamps drivers were defienetly as described here: http://www.barchetta.cc/german/pirro/Galleries.Eventi/Schlegelmilch/B_1.htm

I also have the original race results which list the cars, drivers, and numbers.

The documents I have are not copies they are original.

The Ferrari documents you have which are you referring to? I have many P car Ferrari documents as well and mine don't show that.

Best

 

Jim,

I also know what the original Le Mans documents say, and I will go out on a limb here and say that the Ferrari people who submitted the documents had a pretty good idea which car was which. I have no doubt that the Tech Inspector saw a car entered by Francorchamps with a chassis tag of 0856 on it. It was really 0858. The swap was done for Carnet purposes.

I am saying that the #24 car had 0856 on it, but was in fact 0858.
The #21 car had 0858 on it, but was in fact 0856.
The stripe painter would, therefore, think that he was working on 0856.

Each Prototype has a "book" at Ferrari listing all the specifications and changes or repairs to the car during it's life with Ferrari. Very detailed down to testing lap times and suspension settings. As I said, the Ferrari Factory provided me with copies of the original specification sheets and internal notes made during the preparation of the car. They have no reason to release original documents from their archive.

I also have the Spa 1000K sheets for P4 0856. It is generally thought that Spa was contested by P4 0858. That is incorrect.

Best regards,

Jay D. Felter

 

Not bad

 

0854 moving along...
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