360 F1 Pump problems and solutions

Hey there to everyone with a 360 that has had trouble with their F1 pump failing and those that will have a problem--which is everyone!

For those of us with a 360 F1 sooner or later you will run into a failure of the electrical motor that drives the hydraulic pump for the paddle shift. The motor "overheats", usually at around 20k to 25k miles, but can happen sooner or later.

As usual, the replacement part from Ferrari is way overpriced and actually doesn't fix the real problem.

So, having my pump go bad, I decided to investigate why they fail and what can be done about it, and here is what I have found. (And I may not have the whole answer or all of the answers!)

1.) The pump is a 12 volt dc motor from Hitachi that looks to be either a blower motor or a windshield wiper motor.

2.) The hydraulic pump assembly is a standard "gearpump" assembly that is very reliable and bulletproof.

3.) The pump assembly bolts to the DC motor via 2 bolts and is a completely separate part. (This is important for reasons below!)

4.) The pump is actuated via the perssure switch in the hydraulic accumulator (and door-but that is not really important.)

5.) The pump receives power via a 30 amp relay behind the passenger seat.

Now it is the 30 amp relay that is the real culprit. Evidently, the relay can overheat (due to the motor drawing over 30 amps at times) and when it does the contacts inside the relay warp and or weld together. The result is that the relay is constantly "on", even when the pressure switch in the accumulator is telling it to stop.

Because the motor is running and trying to pump the hydro fluid to about 50 bar, but as the accumulator is already fully pressurized the electrical motor stalls, causing it to overheat and short out. So, because there is a $40.00 relay that has failed, you wind up with a burnt out motor. So you go to Ferrari to get a new one a find out they cost about $2000.00!!, or you go to Rutlands, etc. and get a cost of $1650.00!! A lot of money for this bit!!

Now, on the 360 CS the relay has been replaced with a 50 amp unit (Wonder why?) but you cannot simply replace your 30 amp relay with the 50 amp unit because the insertion lugs are different and will not fit a 360 socket!

So even if you buy a new pump/motor assembly, you will wind up burning out that unit eventually. Incidently, the dealer replaces the relay whenever they do a pump change--just to be safe! But you still have not fixed anything!!!

So what to do?

I suggest the following:

1.) If your motor goes bad, remove it yourself (30 minutes job-piece of cake to get at.) or have your mechanic remove it, and bring it to a local electrical repair house and have them rebuild it for you--it should be about $100.00 and will be as good as new, if repairable. (And it may not be!)

2.) Replace the relay-I would do this no matter what, if your car has over 10k on it. The cost is nothing and may extend pump life.

So, what else can you do. Not much as things stand-but I am working on a proper solution, as follows:

1.) A jumper plug or cable that will connect the 50 amp CS relay onto the 360 socket. This will allow you to run with the more powerful relay, which should solve most of the overheating problems.

2.) I am also working on a replacement DC motor that would use the existing pump assembly. This means your fluid connections and pump performance is as factory. I would replace the "factory" DC motor with a more high performance motor, one designed to run 100% duty cycle and survive. The issue is that the size and mounting will be different, and I will need to machine up an adapor plate to connect the pump to "my" motor.

3.) I am also looking at incoporporating a torque limiting clutch into the design, so that, if the motor stalls, the clutch will allow the motor to freewheel until the stall goes away. This would be a good safeguard on the system.

4.) I am also looking at adding an alarm (warning light) that you could put somewhere on the dash, telling you if the pump is running or running over a certain length of time, etc.

5.) I am going forward with 1 and 2 above, maybe 3 and 4 and need feedback from the F-Chat community, namely:

1.) Would anybody be interested in this kit? I have no prices but would imagine that a motor, adaptor plate, mount bracket to attach to car should be a lot less than the $1640.00 that we must now pay, maybe half or less, and a better product to boot! If I could get a small production run, then the prices would drop-so the more the better.

So anyhow-if ayone has had F1 pump issues, or wnats more info or wants to add thier advice or comments-please let me know what you are thinkin!

 

I wonder how different this is to the 355 F1 pump

 

So-nobody out there cares about paying $1600.00 for their 360 pump?

 

I would be very interested in your relay conversion as a preventative measure. Regarding the pump, I would love to have the chance to buy your solution if/when mine goes out, but I can't commit to it in advance. Nonetheless, I think it is terrific that you are pursuing this.


Lou

 

Not that I have a F1 transmission, or a 360 (or even an F-car at the moment...) but have you considered a solid state relay? That would completely eliminate the contact welding issue at the source. You might still consider a time based safety lockout in case the accumulator pressure switch failed though.

 

A simpler solution posted in your identical thread here: http://70.85.40.84/~ferrari/forum/showthread.php?t=114883

As I've noted in that other thread, I paid $900 for the F1 pump from the Ferrari dealer when the relay malfunctioned 1.5 years ago.

 

Brian, thanks for the info.

 

Price of $1650.00ish comes from both Ted Rutlands and Lyle Tanners. The $2000.00 price is from dealer parts guy-he gave that as a "rough" number, not exact.

So price has gone up--but even at $900.00 it is a rip off-I mean are you saying $900.00 is okay to pay for a $100.00 electric motor?

 

Dozzina,

Interesting idea of a solid state relay. I am not familiar with these (very well) and need to see about this. If you have data/suggestions please let me know.

 

Price likely had gone up since my fix. The service guys I've talked to agrees that a better design, such as what you're proposing, is what's needed.

I wonder if there's a similar problem on a F430 F1 pump? That unit has to run the E-Diff as well.

 

Brian,

SS relays are fabulous, and I have used them before for applications where it was not safe to use contact relays. There is no arcing or any high heat concerns.

Manufacturers such as Ferrari get locked into particular avenues and never consider contemporary alternatives.

I have used SSR's for remote turn-on of audio equipment and also in car stereo for high power amplifier remote turn-on circuits.

NTE Electronics, Inc., 44 Farrand St, Bloomfield, NJ 07003, 800-631-1250 www.nteinc.com.

I have used a model RS3-1010-51. It uses 3-32Vdc as the trip control circuit and 24-330V AC 10 amp as the load side. They have units beyond 30 amp capability.

They are small (one I mentioned measures: 1.75" W X 2.25" H X 7/8" D) and they are easy to use.

"Contact" them for a current catalog which may also be on line. (pun intended).

 

(Web search....) Something like this might be interesting.

http://oeiwcsnts1.omron.com/pdfcatal.nsf/PDFLookUpByUniqueID/10BC41338706F0348625704400752890/$FILE/C20G3VMRelaySelGd0305.pdf

You'll need to manage the voltage spike that occurs when you switch the pump off (this is what destroys the relay contacts, regardless of the relay amperage rating selected.) A high current diode across the switch terminals (reversed biased when the switch is off) is generally a good start.

 

It's not that, but this is the kind of thing you're not going to freak about until it's a problem. Thanks for the insight here. I wonder if they improved this on the 430?