360 F1 shifting problem... caused by bad relay? | FerrariChat
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360 F1 shifting problem... caused by bad relay?

Discussion in '360/430' started by jjsaustin, May 8, 2010.

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  1. jjsaustin

    jjsaustin Formula Junior

    May 11, 2008
    579
    Austin, TX
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    Jim
    #1 jjsaustin, May 8, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    One morning last week I went out for coffee. When I came out, my car would not engage any gear. Although I could get the dash to display any forward gear or reverse, when I tried to accelerate nothing happened. I turned the car off and back on. Everything seemed OK. On the way home a similar problem happened when I came to a stop sign. I don't recall how I got the car to engage again (I may have restarted the car like before).

    Later that same day, I took the car to my mechanic and it acted up again. Turning the car off for 30 sec seemed to do the trick. My mechanic noted that the pump was making a strange sound occasionally and not getting up to pressure occasionally. Since I had a used pump I thought I would give it a shot and try to replace the pump and the relay.

    When I replaced the relay (ordered from a Fchat member Juri), I noticed that on my old relay the left contacts seemed to be sitting a little closer than the right contacts. I opened up the relay and took a few pictures. You can see the left contact is badly pitted in the enclosed pictures, while the right side shows very little wear. I wiped off the carbon from the left contact in the second picture, so it originally looked much worse.

    I have taken my car out probably 10 times, with many miles and many, many shifts without any problems. I did not replace my F1 pump and I am going to hold off for now unless the problem occurs again.

    Honestly, I will be a bit surprised IF the relay turns out to be the root cause of the problem. IF the problem is REALLY fixed then it could have been the old relay was causing a bad or lossy connection which prevented the F1 pump from getting the proper voltage and priming fully.

    I hope this thread may help people if they have F1 problems to check their relay.

    Any thoughts?

    -Jim
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  2. Juri

    Juri Formula Junior
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    #2 Juri, May 9, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    I am glad to hear that replacing this relay had resolved your car's problems with F1 shifting.

    Your assessment of reasons for the malfunction is correct and thanks for posting pictures of the burnt relay.

    You had witnessed first hand what other 360F1 owners had been reporting as well – excessive wear or even welding of those old V23134-B57-X203 (Tyco/Siemens) relay contacts due to electric arching, as the result of improper positioning (one contact gets to close first and passes the whole 30 Amps, instead of only 15 Amps, before another contact relieves half of that current).

    This is why recently manufactured V23134-B57-X152, V23134-B57-X177, and V23134-B57-X266 Tyco relays have contacts made from an alloy that can withstand the higher temperatures and arching at least twice longer than typical, about 12,000 miles or 12 month operation.

    Unfortunately, these new relays are not offered by F-----i dealerships or online F-----i parts distributors.

    You can find this new relay here:
    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vbclassified.php?do=ad&id=4160

    For those who are interested in this subject I also recommend to read the following thread:
    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=268458&highlight=clutch+sensor&page=1
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  3. voicey

    voicey Formula 3

    Jul 29, 2009
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    #3 voicey, May 9, 2010
    These relays are also used in Alfa Romeos but cost a lot less...

    Cooling fan relay part no 11130287
     
  4. Juri

    Juri Formula Junior
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    #4 Juri, May 9, 2010
    Thanks for the cross-reference info.
    However, I could not find it... nobody in the US sell this Alfa Romeo relay online.
    If you have a link, please let me know and we all can enjoy a lower price.
    Thanks.
    Juri.
     
  5. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    39,169
    Clarksville, Tennessee
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    Terry H Phillips
    #5 tazandjan, May 9, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Ferrari solved this problem by going from a 30 amp relay to a 50 amp relay on later model 360, 360 CS and 575M cars. And no, a relay is not a safety device so using a relay capable of taking more heat is not a safety issue. You could use a 150 amp relay and the 30 amp fuse would still provide the same protection. The good news is the new relay is 1/3 the cost of the old relay: 155437 is $88.65, 194909 is $24.14. The bad news is the new relay does not fit the old connector as delivered, but a little work with a Dremel or similar grinding tool makes the blades match the old connector. Be careful not to heat up the blades too much while doing this.

    Funny Ferrari did not figure this out earlier, because the 50 amp relay was in use in the 575M in another location from Day 1 of production.

    Taz
    Terry Phillips
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  6. Juri

    Juri Formula Junior
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    #6 Juri, May 9, 2010
    Last edited: May 9, 2010
    Terry, I agree with you, although I never said that a relay is a safety device... However, the issue of overheating due to arching through only one contact, if the relay contacts dont close together at the same time, which causes the relay to overheat and "burn" even if the 30 Amps fuse does not blow. The proof is in the picture above, posted by jjaustin.

    There has been a lot of discussion about switching from a 5-prong 2x15 Amps relay to a 4-prong 50Amp relay. Your aproach (filing one of the contacts using a rotary tool) is innovative indeed. However, I would not recommend your approach, because each of those narrow blades in the original relay conducts 15Amps. Without changing the relay socket to connect wires leading to individual narrow contacts together to a single wider contact, all electric current will end up going through that one narrow (filed down) blade and will cause overheating again! This is why they call 50Amps relays with wide connecting blades - "maxi-relays".

    Furthermore, RicambiAmerica sell this 50Amps relay (Ferrari part#170061 for newer 360F1 models) for $6.49 !!! This price is unbeatable and is much less than the price you indicated...
    http://www.ricambiamerica.com/product_info.php?products_id=205614

    However, becuase reliable 5-prong relays are not readily availbale in US, I did a lot of research and found several types of those 5-prong 15 x 2 Apms relays, opened all of them and measured the alloy melting point from each relay (old and new). Also, I have built a relay tester (a multi-cycle simulator), which turns the relay on and off automatically at different frequencies + loads different currents 15, 30, 40, 50 Amps. Also, tested each type of these new relays in my own car for at least a month to be sure that there are no problems:
    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/vbclassified.php?do=ad&id=4204

    Thus, if you have a 1999-2001 360F1, IMO I recommend replacing the old relay with the new 5-prong relay described above.
     
  7. tazandjan

    tazandjan Three Time F1 World Champ
    Lifetime Rossa Owner

    Jul 19, 2008
    39,169
    Clarksville, Tennessee
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    Terry H Phillips
    #7 tazandjan, May 9, 2010
    Last edited: May 9, 2010
    Juri- Sounds like you have done considerable research on this. The new 50 amp relay you reference sounds like a better deal, especially at that price. Several owners have tried different 50 amp relays that fit, but failed almost overnight, so knowing the correct one to buy is very valuable info.

    It is really funny that Ferrari recommends the 50 amp relay as a replacement for the 30 amp relay in the parts catalog, but the 50 amp does not fit without surgery. Wonder how many people have bought a replacement 50 amp relay and then been very unhappy very quickly?

    I knew you understood a relay is not a safety device, but the question comes up every time so thought I would preempt it.

    Taz
    Terry Phillips
     
  8. Juri

    Juri Formula Junior
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    #8 Juri, May 9, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Terry, I was puzzled by the same question: 50 Amps relay with 30 Amps ???!!! Then, I figured out that the problem was with non-simultaneous closure of that 2x15Amps relay, which develops due to poor craftsmanship. Mechanical tolerances of that relay are too large and after a while the dual contact flap becomes too loose and causes one of the contacts to close earlier than the other and causes sparking that melts the contact (usually on one side).

    This is most likely why instead of 2x15Amps 5-prong relay Ferrari electrical engineers decided to switch to a 4 prong 40Amsp and then 50Amps maxi relays with a single contact made of an alloy that can withstand higher temperatures during arching. The 50Amps relay has a resistor to decrease the operating current and temperature of it's solenoid coil. The “anatomy” of a 50Amps relay is shown in the attached pictures.

    Some newly manufactured Tyco 2x15Amps relays also have contacts made of higher temperature alloy. Currently, I am testing in my car the latest model V23134-B57-X266 Tyco relay, which has the best performance so far…

    To those who would try searching for this relay on the web, my advice is not to waste time, because the V23134-B57-X266 relay was produced by Tyco for a specific manufacturer and is not sold via electronic parts distributors or from Tyco directly (hence, the higher price than what we all would like it to be…).
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  9. voicey

    voicey Formula 3

    Jul 29, 2009
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    #9 voicey, May 15, 2010
    No worries. I'm in the UK so can't point you to a source - sorry.
     
  10. jjsaustin

    jjsaustin Formula Junior

    May 11, 2008
    579
    Austin, TX
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    Jim
    #10 jjsaustin, May 17, 2010
    Last edited: May 17, 2010
    First off, my car still seems to be shifting properly after replacing my relay. I have probably put 200 miles and made a dozen trips without any issues.

    Juri, thanks for all the insight. After seeing how my relay failed I tend to agree with you that the 2 sets of contacts is a poor design. If this new relay utilizes a new alloy with higher temperature contacts, it may prevent them from being welded shut and burning out the pump if they are both making full contact. However, it does not prevent the issue where one set of contacts is really doing all the work. As in the case of my pictures, one set of contacts looks new and the other set eventually failed. In this case, I am still concerned of one set of contacts welding shut and eventually burning up the motor.

    It seems to me that the best solution is to go with the 50 amp relay as and file down the blades a bit. Juri, I respectfully disagree with your statement below. Each "load" blade carries the full current which passes through the contacts. The original 30amp relay blades that fit the original socket, support 30 amps plus some extra margin. So the same would be true for the filed down blades on the 50amp relay. So in the case where the motor tried to pull more than 30 amps, the actual fuse would blow, just as it should.

    To me that is the 50amp relay is the best of both worlds. It has one set of contacts, and they are rated for much higher current that the original 30amp. So the contacts should be very durable and there is no risk of welding shut and burning your motor, because your fuse would blow first.

    So the questions are:

    1) Does the 50amp relay that Terry posted have 1 set of contacts or two?
    2) Does the 50amp maxi-relay Juri posted have a similar pin out and just require some filing to fit the standard socket?

    Juri are you sure this relay is only $6? I went to Ricambi and saw the $6.49 price, but no picture.

    Thanks,

    -Jim


     

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