Mondial Cab rear side window removal?

Anyone do this before? Can you share a "how to"?

I'm trying to avoid unbolting stuff until it's loose. It's also snotty with grease so I don't want to handle it around the leather more than I have to. The motor and track need a thorough cleaning and taking it out is the only way.

What I know so far:

You get to the motor and wiring through the side grill access panel outside the car. I see the track has two bolts at the top and a single bolt sitting in a fork at the bottom. So far, so good. I removed the inner leather trim piece which opens up the top hole some more.

Do I need to remove one or both window tracks also? Do I put the window up or down for removal? As I lift the assembly out, do I swing it inside or outside to clear? Do I have to separate the glass from the lift mechanism first?

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

 

I know, not a popular thread, but if I don't ask...

I'm at the point where the lift and glass assembly is free from the mounting bolts but the assembly as a whole is still too large to bring out the top slot. My feeling is that I need to separate the glass from the lift assembly and take it out in two pieces - the glass first and then the lift.

I can get to the rear bolt that connects the two through the access panel through the side, but cannot figure out how to reach the front one. If I can get that apart it looks like it may be down hill from there.

Any ideas?

Oh, and here's a tease: I saw a brand new lift assembly, that looks remarkably like the one I'm trying to remove. Perhaps a modified bracket and travel adjustment and it may be a reasonably priced replacement for the Ferrari item? Just something I'm checking into if I can get the old one out.

HELP!

 

WOW,

All us Mondial owners thank you .. all these rear windows seems to have been reaching the end of their life span and failing....a cheaper replacement or fix would be great ( after you get it out of course) all us less mechanically inclined are pullin' for you. The rear window is just a crazy expensive problem.
Who sits back there anyway? the window goes up/down, all of , what, 4 inches and costs about $700 (wow about 175 per inch...almost more than the proposed 2nd ave subway!) yet the window failure defeats the top open/close and a major enjoyment of the car. I would love a manual crank (maybe from the outside through the grills -- that would be a sight to see!) or a cheaper replacement /fix...

 

My next move - unless someone tells me an easier way - is to remove the rear window track to free up some more space. The way I see it is that there is a screw that can only be reached from - get this - the WHEEL WELL!

Imagine, the R&R for a Mondial rear window motor reads like so:

First, remove the side cooler grills outside the car to access the motor.
Second, remove the rear tire.
Third, remove the forward section of the inner fender well.
Forth, reach in through the wheel well opening and remove the window track...

All this to replace a rear window motor? Looks like it so far. I'll keep you posted.

About the new window motor lift: I'll definitely look into it and see what I can make out of it. Cosmetically, it looks identical. Lets see what happens.

 

Hetek, you think that's bad.... I had to remove and clean the seat belt retractor drum on the pass side and to accomplish that I had to remove all the interior trim panels in the area which in turn required unbolting the convertible top (3.2 mondial cab) mechanism on that side which in turn required removing extermal trim pieces. I had half the car apart just to get to a silly dried out spring and hinge mechanism - just plain goofy.

 

Oh, now that you mentioned it, I had to unbolt the convertible top too.

That's how you remove the internal trim panel to access the top two bolts on the window lift mechanism.

...and speaking of seat belt retractors, did I mention I dropped a washer down the seatbelt slot? At least now I know who who to ask how to get THAT out. Thanks Cliff!

 

From what I remember:
The entire mechanism came out through the top of slot.
The interior trim around the window needed to come off.
The pivot bolt for top came out.
The lower mounting bolt hole is slotted, so just loosen hardware.
Window removed from mechanism.
That's all I can remember for sure.
pulling feder liner and all was a waste of time. I did both sides, and the passenger's side took a third of the time the driver's side did. Mainly because I found I could reach all the hardware from inside or through the window slot with the window removed.
I remember cussing some.
good luck.

 

SpannerMan-

You hit the nail on the head. All of the above.

Yes, the convertible top pivots need to be unbolted. I agree that the window track removal was unnecessary (now that I removed them and found no greater advantage) and yes, the glass MUST be seperated from the mechanism.

The thing is out and on my bench. I test ran it and it still seems slow, considering it has absolutely NO load now. Just thick grease.

Some news: I never heard it mentioned before but the lift mechanism has that famous Italian four letter word stamped on it: "FIAT"!

I'm going to begin with a good cleaning and inspection. Some repair possibilities include replacing JUST the motor (I found a source for BOSCH motors) or modifying a new complete lift assembly to fit the Ferrari application.

Another possiblity may be a Delco motor. I may burn in hell for suggesting that one, though.

 

I take functionality over origionality in cases like that.....ooohhh its getting warm.....

 

So far so good...

I cleaned the snot out of the track and cable assembly. Key words: Thick grease!

I took the motor off the cable and it ran fine free. I relubed everything with nice clean white lithium lube amd reassembled.

As Col Potter once commented in an old M*A*S*H* episode as he sipped scotch:
"There aren't enough "O's" in the word "smooooooooooth".

WARNING: Be VERY careful if anyone decides to take the motor off the cable as I did. There are dozens of TINY (1/16") ball bearings that roll around inside the motor shaft that make contact with the cable. If you take the cable out and shoot cleaner down the tube you may wash out all the bearings without knowing it (I caught all of mine in a drain pan). It's a funky engineering deal that prevents the cable from binding on the motor shaft. Funny thing is, the bearings are so small that a grain of sand on the cable could bind it up. I suspect that many motors written off as "dead" may have just had a grain of sand stuck in it.

I reinstalled the track/motor/glass and am looking into the wiring end of it now. I may need to "direct wire" to a good strong 12VDC source. Jumping directly to the battery works fine but the existing Ferrari window wiring is lacking in power.

Re: New Motor: I've found several manufacturers that make lift assemblies and one I spoke with said that his lift has been used for Ferrari's in the past. That's my last resort at this point but I have my fingers crossed.

 

Hetek,

Thanks for sharing all your efforts with the rest of the mondial fleet. I bet you are spending more time on this little window then the Ferrari engineers ever spent designing this thing in the first place. (thank you again)...looks like you discovered another left-over from the FIAT parts bin....makes me wonder if this motor was used in other FIATs whose motor is now probably $49 as a Fiat part! Imagine, Mondial's with working rear windows...I guess there is a Santa Claus (he wears red, must be a F-guy!

 

Funny about the FIAT part - You do a search on the web for "FIAT window motor" and see how many hits you get! Try again using "Ferrari" and you get next to none (good ones). You may be right NYC...

My take on repairing the whole assembly: Aftermarket motors use the same conduit system with the push-pull cable, so what's the difference? If the track and framework is OK and the only problem is a weak or dead motor, then I would "simply" cut the weld where the cable end meets the lift slider and weld on a new cable/motor/conduit. See? Simple! At least some of it would remain Ferrari (or was it FIAT?). Again, my last resort, but a viable one that I'm 99% sure would work. That and the fact it's been done before. Another advantage is that the new motors are heavy duty Bosch worm drive instead of that funky peanut motor with spiral drive. Remember, we're talking about the rear window here.

Just like SpannerMan said - The second window would take 1/3 the time.

 

Hetek,
with all the power shortages in the mondial...not enough to even power the litle rear windows with goopy grease...I can no understand why there was no power conv. top for the car...(I always wondered why, with a car that cost so much new, there was no powertop..) I always joke that enzo made the mondial a 4 seater 'cause that is how many guys you need to take the top up/down --and that is when the window motors work!

 

It's DONE!

For those that may attempt this in the future, here's how I did it:

1. Remove the side grill (you're working on a Mondial, right?). One phillips head screw in the top rear corner. CAREFULLY, push the entire grill towards the front of the car to release the plastic hooks at the front ends of the fins. Again, CAREFULLY pull the ends of the fins away from the body, working each one out a little at a time (not all at once). Mine was gunked with years of wax buildup and took some coaxing. Don't break the hooks - they are a molded part of the grill assembly and are fragile plastic.

2. Remove the black metal access panel inside the grill opening. Two phillips head screws at the top (two different sizes, keep 'em straight) and one at the bottom (that actually screws into the rear window track bracket). Inside you have access to the window motor wiring. Test away.

3. Mine tested n/g and had to come out. Jack up the car and remove the rear tire. Yes, the rear tire. Remove the forward section of the wheel well tub (several phillips screws). This is to get access to the rear window track mounting bolt. I've read reports that it doesn't need to come out but I found that the extra 1/2" it gets you is a great help when working to remove or replace the regulator assembly.

4. Remove the interior trim piece that goes against the window. One screw at the rear end. Remove the screw and wiggle it loose.

6. Put the top down and remove the two bolts that connect the top frames to the car next to the window opening. Remove the bolts and fold the brackets out of the way. Be careful of the wave washers behind the plastic trim cups behind the brackets. Don't drop them down the seatbelt slot like I did. Also, don't drop the small spacers on the bolts. The next trim piece will be loose now - it is only held in place by the plastic cups. Remove the trim piece.

7. I took off the plastic edge trim that runs the length of the window slot inside and the rubber window seal on the outside. Two reasons: The inside piece will get you and extra 1/8" of space (space is at a premium) and the outside rubber seal won't get greasy when the window track rubs on it, smearing the glass later.

8. Remove the glass. I pried my glass out of the bottom channel - CAREFULLY. Next time I would remove the rear nylon wheel (as seen through the side access panel) and unsnap the front nylon wheel from the channel and take the window and channel out as a whole. I put it back in as a whole so I know it fits.

9. Remove the rear window track. Remember the wheel well opening? There is one bolt at the top through there. There was the bolt you removed when taking off the access panel (it should be out already). Also, inside the car there is a nut and washer at the top that bolts down the top fabric tail flap. Remove the nut and washer and fold back the fabric tab. Behind the tab is one last bolt (a track mounting bolt that is also used for fore/aft adjustment). Mark the location of the bolt and remove. The track should come out now - twist, lift up, drop down and out. Or just plain wiggle it out. It's free.

10. Remove the two top bolts holding the lift mechanism to the body (from inside the car). There is a bottom bolt that sits in a slotted "fork" and will release when pulled up. It may need to be loosened though.

11. Put the track about 2/3 down if you still have the wires connected to the motor. If not, run test leads to power the motor into position. Makes life easier. I used an insulated alligator clip on the male motor connector and a banana plug on the female connector. Worked perfectly.

12. The assembly should come up and out now. Tilt the top forward as it comes out and the two cable "loops" will clear.

Put the mess on your bench and give it a good cleaning. I used 409 and acetone for the metal only parts. I used a plastic-safe electrical parts cleaner in a spray can for the rest. DO NOT remove the cable from the motor unless you are prepared to find dozens of tiny ball bearings when they fall out. Here, thick grease is an advantage. The bearings run around inside the motor shaft between the hollow shaft and the cable. Two clips hold the "bearing return tube" onto the end of the motor shaft. Kinda hard to explain this. I removed the clips, removed the tube, cleaned everything, and then packed the tiny bearings back in one at a time. Then reassemble the tube and clips.

I used the entire can of cleaner and wish I had another. I cleaned the spiral windings of the cable with an old toothbrush and cleaner. Remember, the tiny ball bearings run around these spirals. I repacked and regreased with white lithium lube. Just enough, not too much. Don't fill the tube that holds the extra length of cable with lube as it will cause a hydraulic lock and will cause resistance in the mechanism. Just clean it out and lube the cable only.

Run the motor/track assembly on the bench with test wires to be sure all is OK. If everything checks out fine, put 'er back in. Installation is the reverse of removal with one difference: When you get to the nylon wheel into the window bottom channel mating I used a pair of LONG nose pliers to squeeze them together until the wheel popped into place. Other than that, everything else was pretty straight forward. It is also helpful to have the test wires handy in case the lift mechansm needs to be powered during installation. Be careful not to bend the cable "loops". If they kink, they will bind the cable.

Bottom line: It runs 100% better but only when run directly from the battery. That fix is next.

Final note: I am offering this a history of how I did it and what worked for me. If you don't feel comfortable doing the same then don't. Pay a good mechanic instead. I felt that if I broke it I had no one else to blame but myself. Use this info at your own risk.

And remember, your mileage may vary.

 

Hetek, in this season of thanks , i wanted to be sure, on behalf of all frustrated Mondail owners everywhere ( and their passengers) thank you, thank you. This wasn't EZ and someone had to do it and I am glad you shared it with us.

 

Yes, Hetec, Thank you, thank you, thank you, and thanks again to FerrariChat!!!!

 

An addendum to Hetek's excellent post: If you want to remove the rear window front track, the top fastener is at the top of the "B-pillar" front cover, phillips head, painted black. The bottom fasteners are accessed by removing the "B-pillar" front cover. This is done by removing the striker post/bolt and then (on the driver's side) drilling out the two inside VIN plate rivets. The cover will then rotate forward, from the top, allowing the tabs under the scuff plate to come free. This will expose the two lower, phillips head, fasteners.

 

... almost to the day!

I remember working on that window. How time flies.

And thank you FF8929 about the front track info - I never could figure that part out but managed anyway. I would have never thought about drilling out the rivets. The striker post was giving me a hard enough time anyway so I gave up on it. Taking out the back track alone gives you JUST enough room.

Still have the Mondial. And I'm glad to report that the rear windows still work fine AND - get this - they actually can outrun the front windows! I may tackle that project in the future but as long as they go up and down, I'm happy.

 

Are you ready for this----Ferrari Warranty on this job paid the dealer something insane like 1.8hrs to perform this all day nightmare. Some one out there must have an old sts for this, I'd love to be reminded of exactly how ridiculous it was....
True story,WE ARE EX-dlr wrenches...and to think, people think flat rate is stealing...it all "dollar cost averages" OUT IN THE LONG RUN....

 

Another addendum to Hetek’s post: Here’s how I cleaned out the tube “behind” the motor that holds the extra cable. (Pix below) Drill a 3/16” hole through the tube near the flat end (yes, chips may get into the tube, but they will be washed out). This will allow solvent (I used a parts washer) to flow all the way through the tube. Use a piece of wire, with a coil twisted into the end, to clean out the old grease. Finally, blow out with compressed air. I sealed the holes with ½” heat shrink tubing (3M FP-301, or equivalent).

Also, if you’re the kind of person who just has to remove the motor from the cable (and you know who you are) the bearing count is 45/ea, based upon my two windows.
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Thank you so much for the instructions!

Unfortunately I encountered difficulties at the very beginning: This is how my car looks with the cooler grills removed. How can I access anything through that tiny opening?

I was hoping that I can check whether the motor gets power before eventually removing the rear wheel?
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Mmmm, the "T" has a lot less access room than my 83. Can the ducting be moved to get more room? If not, can you get your hand in there. Can a child, or a small woman get
their hand in there? If so, you may be able to get a hold of the wiring harness and pull it out to check for power. Or, you could try to get the harness with a "hook wire". As to removing the window and motor, you'll have to start with Hetek's instructions and improvise where you can.

 

Good idea! It may cost me a portion of icecream, but I think my kids will be willing to help ..

 

I couldn´t identify the cable to check whether the window motor gets power.

My daughter took some photographs. On one of them it seems there are to cables attached to some sort of subassembly. Is this the power supply for the motor? If so I'm afraid I have to remove to rear wheel before going any further.
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Yes, those are the wires you want to check. You should be able to pull on them, and get to the connector. Unplug the connector and check as follows: One wire will have power when you push the switch into the "Down" position, then the other wire will have the power when you push the switch into the "Up" position. Sadly, I don't think there's any access through the rear fender well, not on my 1983 anyway..