Ayrton Senna gives Schumi ****

Speaking of Jordan, I remember there was an interview with Eddie. They asked him a question about all the drivers that have been with him, who were the best he had ever seen. He was hesitant to answer the question, because he felt it wasn't fair to all his other drivers, but Senna and Schumacher were the best.

 

Which Schumacher? The one in the green or the yellow Jordan?

 

Between these 2 top drivers the greatest WTF moment had to be Senna in the 1990 Brazilian GP. Still see it in my mind's eye; maybe if he hadn't been so stupid in that race he wouldn't have had to intentionally crash into Prost in Japan 1990.....

Senna was fast but definitely not the smartest driver ever...

 

Take a look:

http://members.home.nl/natasja20/Guestbook/guestbook2005_1st_half2005.htm

 

And even more amazing when it's someone who supposedly reviews contracts on a daily basis.

If you go back and review what I wrote, the comment was regarding laughing at someone else in the same profession whose death has occurred while conducting the duties inherent to that profession.

 

Micheal, the one in the green.

 

Wow what a topic, Parker definately doesn't know **** about F1 with his dip$hit comments about the cars of the 80's. Try 1,000 Hp GP Cars with Slicks, Fuel Economy Restrictions, no T/C, and Manual Gearboxes. So before speaking crap do a little homework.

For whatever it is worth, the drivers from the Mid 80's had a much more competitive era than now. Why? Very simple, back than the cars broke down much more. Therefore a guy like Alain Prost or Ayrton Senna had a less chance of finishing a race.

As far as Michael Schumacher, lets get our heads out of our asses, although this is a Ferrari Chat Site. When Senna died, F1 needed a figure. That is why MS basically became the number one driver on the number one team without a real rival teammate. He had a very unique position in F1. Senna died. Prost retired. Mansell got old. That is it. He came into the Bennetton team during a time when they were a Factory Ford team, unlike Senna who started his career at Toleman (equivalent of Midland Racing today).

In 1994 MS had Tom Walkinshaw one of the biggest cheats of all time with a car that had Traction Control, illegal Fuel Changing, Etc. A better reflection is 93 when Senna had a customer Ford engine and won 5 races and mopped Benetton. For the last time if Damon Hill and Jacques Villeneuve won championships with Williams, what do you think Senna would have done with that team from 94 through 97? Unless your a hard on like Imperial 183 and look at F1 through history you will gain a better appreciation.

 

My misguide fellow forum member Senna____ or ____Senna etc., and I use the term loosely, very very loosely. Try to stay with me on this if you can, the concept may be a little beyond your ability to understand, but let's try this one more time. I promise I will try to put this as delicately and politely to you as possible, in the very same respectful method and manner you have shown to the others here:

SENNA IS DEAD, HE HAS BEEN DEAD FOR OVER 10 YEARS, AND GUESS WHAT, AFTER ALL THE **** YOU WANT TO THROW AT OTHERS HERE, HE WILL STILL BE DEAD. CAN YOU SAY "DEAD"?!! DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT A DEAD MAN CAN NOT ACCOMPLISH "ENTER YOUR FAVORITE WORD HERE" OR DO YOU NEED TO GOOGLE THE WORD "DEAD" TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IT MEANS ??!! NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY ABOUT SENNA, HE WILL NEVER EVER BE ABLE TO COME BACK AND WIN ALL THOSE IMAGINARY TITLES THAT YOUR SAD LITTLE MIND WANTS TO BELIEVE HE WOULD HAVE. NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES YOU TRY TO SUMMON HIM TO YOUR LITTLE PAJAMA PARTIES, HE WILL NEVER EVER BE ABLE TO GET ANY MORE POLE POSITIONS TO STOP MS FROM BEATING HIS RECORD. THAT IS BECAUSE HE IS DEAD, DEAD AND DEAD. HE IS SO DE-COMPOSED RIGHT NOW THAT YOU CAN'T EVEN SEPARATE HIM FROM A PILL OF YOUR FAVORITE "AGAIN, ENTER YOUR FAVORITE HUMAN WASTE OBJECT HERE".

Even after 10 plus years, you and a few others are still stuck on the first stage of grieving. We, your fellow forum members are not full of **** as you had so kindly suggested before you edited your post, you just really need to seek professional help on how to deal with grief. Perhaps you can all gather together for a session, I am sure some reputable Psychiatrist will be willing to give you all a group discount on this. Or do we have to call your first grade teacher again so he/she can explain to you one more time how that the little goldfish you killed by over feeding him is never ever coming back? Yes, I am talking about the one that your father flushed down the toilet. Now, do you have anymore questions about the concept of death?

Regards.

 

Finally, a voice if reason.

The Benneton-Ford was still slightly inferior to the 94 Williams-Renault at best that year. To say that MS had a better car that year is like believing that Ide/Super Aguri combo is superior to the Alonso/Renault combo this year.

 

Rubbish. Does Ide in the Super Aguri in second place close down on Alonso in first place in the opening laps of the race?

No, nothing of the sort. Your example is way over the top.

In '94 Benneton was one of the top 3 teams, not the worst.

Michael won the first two races of '94, before the fateful race at Imola. While Senna got pole for both races, Michael started from P2, only 0.328 and 0.222 seconds behind, respectively.

Despite what alot of poeple are saying about the '94 Williams being so wonderful, it was in fact a letdown to Senna and very difficult to drive. It originated from the year before when traction control and ABS were legal, so it could be designed on the edge of drivability, because the electronic aids would prevent disaster. Once these aids were taken away in '94, it was a handful, and Senna knew he had alot of work to do to improve the car.

 

True, that example was of the extrem and it was made with that very intention in mind.

Unless anyone of us actually had the chance to drive those cars, aren't we all just re-iterating what we read or heard? Maybe you did have the chance to drive the 94 Williams, I did not. However, as difficult to drive as the FW-whatever maybe in 1994, it may still very well be the best car that year as I still feel that it is unlikely that the Benneton with a V8 Ford engine was better than a Williams with the Renault V10. Plus, it also depends on each driver's style. According to Vastoppen (spelling??), those Benneton (Both Ford and the Renault versions) were also very tempermental, especially the Renault version and that they suit Michael's style better. Same thing happened at Ferrari, the cars were created to suit Michael's style more than to suit EI's or RB's. Or perhaps some drivers are simply better at adapting to different cars. I think most if not all cars needs time to develop at the start of any season. As great as Senna was a driver, he should know what his limits and what his car's limits are. It was an unforunate accident that cost the world a great race car driver, but that is where it ends. I don't think it is fair to pin the responsibility to either the car, the team or the driver.

 

I agree...I have also hear that he is still dead despite all the idol worshipers who try to resurrect him to race against modern F1 drivers.

 

What I would think is as good as what you or anyone else would think because Senna is DEAD...we can all speculate, but no one can know because Senna is DEAD.

 

My we are very cavalier about death, aren't we? Senna wasn't a perfect man, why don't you focus on some of his flaws as a person instead of flaunting the fact that he is no longer alive like a flame-baiting moron?

 

Exactly. Gents, let's not shovel dirt over the grave of a man who can no longer defend himself, OK ? Flame each other by all means, we're all alive and can spit right back at you, but leave the departed alone.

 

I agree with Koby. Some of you seem to be enjoying it a little too much to remind the world that Senna isn't alive any more. It's irrelevant. It's as inane an argument as pointing out that, were he alive, he'd be in his 40s and probably 5-7 years removed from racing. So therefore, being out of shape, his talents would be no match for an active, younger Schumacher. Athletes are incorrectly compared from different eras all the time. Do you guys go on NFL boards and tell them to let go of Walter Payton, because he's DEAD? There's no way he could be the greatest running back--he's DEAD!

Argue the merits of each driver, but ease up on the "He's Dead!" sentiments. The accomplishments of people can very much live on after their passing, and that is what happened with Ayrton Senna. Fangio's dead, too. Do we stop talking about him? Ascari?

 

Hey ******, I have my opinion you have yours. As far as a reputable Psychiatrist, apparently you must need one since you talk so much ****. Your right about one thing, I shouldn't have edited my earlier post regarding you being a ****** bag.

 

Can we all take a deep breath and chill out please.

A thread like this is bound to get people going, particularly on a Ferrari site. But I think it is getting out of hand.

No more name calling and no more trolling.

We all know Senna is dead, so repeating that fact over and over again is trolling. So stop it.

For the time being I'll leave this thread open, hoping it goes back to normal level of conversation. If not, I'll close it.

 

You keep on giving me these things senna had achieved in F1 which makes it sound like he's a 'faster' driver than schumi, but that doesn't mean you're right. Senna and Schumi did not enter F1 with the same approach or fashion. People say Senna must be greater than Schumi since he did so well in his first team, which happened to be something like the Minardi of Schumi's days. You say that Senna did so well even when he had a strong teammate like Prost. But how do you know that Schumi wouldn't have done as great of a job as Senna if he were to join Minardi back then? How do you know that Schumi wouldn't have done well if he had Prost as his teammate? You say Schumi said himself he wouldn't have beaten Senna that year if Senna did not die, so? Alonso beated Schumi last year, does that mean Alonso is a better/quicker driver than Schumi? Given the fact that last year Schumi did not make one single mistake whilst following Alonso in San Marino, and looking at last weekend how Alonso performed towards the last few laps, I think we know who's the better driver
All I am saying is, unless there was one point where Schumi and Senna were put into the same car in an unbiased/fair environment to race, none of us would know which one is really faster. Therefore I really do not appreciate it when people say it as a fact that senna is faster than schumi or the other way around.

 

That is a very limited sampling and doesn't tell you anything. With the same logic I could argue that in all the races last year they both had to follow a pace car yet only one of them spun out during that time looking rather foolishly.

 

almost, but not quite, like arguing who's the better player, Ruth or Bonds......

 

Both these guys are legends and racing gods in my book. Trying to make one a hero and the other a zero is a futile, pointless exercise more akin to an ostrich sticking his head in the sand while making sage pronouncements.

Both were brilliant drivers, supremely talented and yet both had flaws that, IMO, gave them character.

If you are a Senna fan, fine!
If you are a MS fan, fine!
But if you worship both like I do, superfine!!

I wish this useless thread is closed. I don't see any value to it.

 

True.

None of these comparisons really ever work. About the only time when one can compare driver to driver is when both of them sit in the same car. Prost and Senna and Prost and Lauda had that chance. Hopefully we'll get to see Kimi and MS in the same car next year. But even then the comparison is not 100% fair as we are looking at drivers of different age and experience.

Come to think of it, really only Prost and Senna in the McLaren was ever a fair comparison. And they beat the heck out of each other. Pironi and Villeneuve in 82 was similar, yet again all too brief.

 

RND,

You are a physician, allow me to appeal to your scientific mind for a moment here, based on facts only now.

1) Schumucher and Senna never raced each other in equal machines during their prime. Senna was a seasoned veteran and MS was still learning. How can anyone honestly compare the two together is beyond me. The drivers that you can compare with would Prost-Senna, Prost-Mansell, Mansell-Piquet and duels to a certain extend are Prost-Piquet and Mansell-Senna or Senna-Piquet. Notice they are drivers in the same era, raced against each other as teammates or with relatively close race cars.

2) Is it okay to discredit or disrespect someone that is living and as in MS's case, still racing? Because that is what all these Senna fans are doing by stating that Senna was better than XXX driver and that XXX driver has no real competition etc.

3) How exactly is MS defending himself here? Is he a member here? I guess it is possible that MS is among us here. Now, since Senna is unable to defend himself here, than how can anyone here make arguements on his behave, based on nothing but "if Senna had lived"? Is he channeling himself through any one of the Senna fans here?

Again, I have plenty of respect for Senna and what he has done. What I can not stand is all these talk about what Senna COULD HAVE DONE. Talk about how great Senna was all you want, but there is no need to put down other drivers, past or current. Don't you agree?

 

...and this discussion/argument would be MUCH more enjoyable over a "few" brewskis....