Over Restoration

It is entirely possible Alberto. The application is subjective depending on the current use of the particular vehicle and the era of design of the original. I feel making such blemishes is an art, without a doubt the labor will cost more to make it look authentic. Over-doing the paint seems to happen quite often, and is one of my biggest pet-peeves.

 

Of course it is and IMO many are.

 

What do you think is driving the over restoration of these cars? The various concours, the judges, the owners? Hypothetical situation, Would a car transported from, say, 1955 (straight from the assembly line, zero miles) and entered in a concours be a 100 point car? Or have the judging standards been raised to such a point that the completely original 1955 car wouldn't stand a chance in the judging. To the best of my knowledge, I've never seen an original car in any of the concours I've attended and probably would know one if it were in front of me.

 

Let's post another scenario. If your car is let's say 40 years old and you wished you had bought it new, how would you ever know if it was correct as it came from the factory? In other words, how could you ever trust what you had as correct and original? Why is this important? Well, if you have a car that is 5 , 10 or 15 years old it is easy to assume that what you see is correct. But, what do you do when your car is 40 years old, has had 8 owners and maybe 20 mechanics patching everything together with little knowledge of what they were doing. How would you ever know what you have if you don't restore it. As for the level of restoration, isn't that a product of expectations for the future and not from the past. You are restoring to a level of quality so that the work you do will last for years to come. That level may seem excessive when it comes to body and paint, but isn't it simply an attempt to do the job well enought so you don't have to do it again in say 5 more years?

 

Interesting thread--hope to hear from more chatters. A year or so ago i judged an early sports-racer where the well-known and top-rated restorer had hand-painted the engine compartment, brush-strokes and all. The car won it's class. Personally, I don't know if Vignale did it that way in 1952, but it certainly caught everyone's eye. Comments?

 

In my humble opinion, 3527GT is exactly what not to do.

 

Cost likely has a lot to do with over-restoration.

When a Lusso or Daytona costs 250k+ and a person spends nearly that much (or more) restoring it, it is hard to find someone willing to settle for a 'less than perfect' job? Could restorers justify their princely sums if they did 'sloppy' (to some eyes) jobs - even if it is 'closer to the original?

Mostly, though, I think expectations drive a lot of classic car over-restorations. We live in a world where cars are exceedingly well built. That, I think, affects the way we think about our favorite past cars. We love them for many reasons - memories, looks, sound, driving sensation - and, in realizing the dream of ownership, we tend to want to make them as perfect not only as they can be, but as we imagine they were/should have been. (This in addition to the fact that we tend to try and make the things we love as perfect as possible)

So the Lusso gets a paint job that does her beautiful lines (perhaps slightly improved by better fitting body panels) and the price of restoration justice - even though Ferrari couldn't have come close to that paint job when she was built. The overhaul creates a more 'modern,' reliable, and even prettier motor than she would originally have enjoyed, while the interior is brought up to the standards we'd expect in a classic 'exotic.'

 

I agree that over restoration is not as desirable as an original condition Ferrari. Even with its flaws, an original car has what a restored car has lost. That is the historical record of what the factory produced for the original owner. Photographs and documents can't recapture those flaws and fixes that give a car its patina.

Maybe this is a trend that will reverse itself as more of us recognize the value of originality. Or that of "restored originality." By that I mean restoration using the tools, materials an techniques of the factory during that period. I for one would appreciate a car that had been restored using these methods to one that incorporates all of the latest materials and high tech processees.

Does anyone know if there has been an attempt by the factory to find old factory workers who might be able to hand these lessons down? It just might be that in the near future we see restorations that utilize these very techniques and people to produce a more "authentic" restoration.

That could be the direction of restorations as well. IMO, the judges and buyers would drive this movement. And that just may well happen. I hope!

 

Agree. This is the problem:

From http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=135496113&postcount=22

Restoration should NOT be a show of your superior skills, more a show of your skills at restoring things to how it actually was. Imagine if somebody worked on art this way ... the original artists skill and style would be lost.

Most of what I like about old race cars, is that sort of crudeness, single focus on only one area ... if I wanted modern perfection, I'd buy a current F1 car!

IMO great restoration companies like Kevin's should tell the owner that they are restoring the car with a poor door gap (for example) because that is how Ferrari made it, and our goal IS to return it to it's 1960's standard, flaws and all.

It's like a perfect model (female) ... she's just not got it, compared to the model with that unique and special something, that makes her different.

Pete

 

I wonder if such period restorations (and I'm not arguing against them) would negatively impact the cars' sale value. Clearly, for some it wouldn't, but I wonder if the loss of buyers wouldn't drive prices down.

 

Here's my two cents --

It depends upon what motives the owner.

Some are really into the concours scene. They like the social aspects, e.g., the Monterey weekend. They like the competitive part. And, frankly, many of them (not all) like to feed their own egos.

Most of these guys engage in checkbook restorations. Early in the morning, you will NOT see them staging their cars in the morning fog at Pebble. That's the job for the hired help, while the owners are still sleeping.

It should not come as a surprise then that a very small army of professionals make their living catering to these owners. It should also not come as a surprise that the thing that the professionals fear the most is having a judge tell an owner that the car that he just spent a zillion dollars on is not original or incorrect.

Given this, it should also not come as a surprise that these professionals (who are great at what they do, BTW) tend to overcompensate.

It also shouldn't be surprising that many of these same professionals are actively involved in setting the judging standards.

Finally, the quality of work has risen to the point where the judges are forced to focus on trivial issues in order to declare a winner.

For these owners, you have the best in show award.

Then you have other owners who don't really care about all that. They drive their cars. They have fun with them. They like showing all the old war wounds. Indeed, part of the fun, is keeping these old bangers running.

When I first meet Malcolm, for example, he was showing his Daytona at the FFQC with the bugs still spattered across the car from his drive from San Diego to New Orleans. My kind of car guy.

For these owners, you have the People's Choice awards.

So it takes all kinds. The key is deciding what you want to do.

Dale

 

One could equally argue the opposite, ie. a perfect restoration would negatively impact the cars' sale value.

In the end the less it is like the car Enzo sold, made and raced the less it is REAL IMO. It is the cars history that makes them interesting ... a poor restoration removes that.

Take Jim's Ford GT40 (for example ... hope you do not mind Jim). If he restored that car and removed the dent that Bruce McLaren made (from his helmet) then we have lost a very interesting bit of history! ... and that is sad.

I bet also when he has visitors and shows that car, that he spends more time explaining that dent and enjoying the discussion than discussing the perfect door gaps, etc.

The flaws are the interesting part of a REAL car ... replicas are perfect, not real old cars.

Note: I hate people that refuse to repaint because the paint is original, etc. That is rubbish, all cars should be maintained in proper order ... not left to deteriate (sp?) in the name of originality.

Pete

 

Speaking of J6. We're doing a 25K mile 10 year service. We gently fix what needs fixing and leave the rest alone.
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Look at the engine on the left. It's J6's original engine after her 25K mile service. Note patina on exhaust. Engine on the stand is J6's spare engine and exhaust which only has maintenance test running. Note how exhaust is still pretty polished. J6's exhaust patina came from Le Mans and 40K of my use.

We made sure her original exhaust was fine, inspected welds, and left the patina alone.

Some would polish her exhaust even brighter than her spare exhaust during a restoration as that's how it was for a few moments. I like how it looks after running Le Mans and 40K miles.

We fixed any cracks in her body carefully but only touched up the paint that was coming loose. We cleaned her tub but didn't buff off 40 years of aging.

This is how we do it others do it differently...
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I'm sure that Jim will not mind me making this comparison (or, at least, I hope not), but one of the ironies of all this is that his #0846 car, which some in the bidness refuse to believe is a real car, is more authentic looking than another P/4 that I ain't gonna name, which is accepted by everybody as a real car.

Man, talk about a brain fart.

Dale

 

Jim if you have a chance could you post a picture of the dent from McLaren's helmet?

Thanks

 

To me, seeing them used is what makes them interesting, regardless of condition.

Nothing speaks more to me than seeing a guy like Peter Mullin race his concours restored 1937 Delahaye 145 at the Monterey Historics the day before winning the Prewar Racing class with it at the Pebble Beach Concours. It was probably overrestored, but I didn't care - I was just happy to see it race- it looked and sounded fantastic!

 

An interesting thread. I must say I much prefer an old car to look (and smell) as it did when new. I know in England there are some specialist restorers who go to great pains to recreate something that looks maybe a couple of years old. Not brand new 1965 and not brand new 2006 replica. Thats a fine art and if the customer wants it, so be it.

But if I could wind the clock back 43 years and had just taken delivery of my brand new 250 Lusso, I would have been pretty disappointed. And I wouldn't have been alone in wanting to improve on it. I might have repainted it to a Rolls Royce standard, and heaven forbid, might have even changed the carpet and ditched the pvc and replaced it with something more in keeping with the expense of the car.The Ferrari trim quality in those days was no better than in an Austin Cambridge !! But that would have been 43 years ago and it wouldn't have entered my head that I'm destroying originality. The car would have then lived its life as an "improved" example and when restoration time comes around again.... how to re-do it ??

I Think the perfect analogy I'm trying to draw is that when Kirk F White bought the 1971 512M for Mark Donohue to race he must have thought, "whats this heap of crap?". That car was rebuilt to the standards expected by the owner. I cannot imagine any future owner would say that 512M isn't as it originally left the factory, and destroy its "improved" history.

Having rambled on like this I have to say that I still get very excited when I see an original unmessed car, I guess we just look at them with different eyes with the passage of time. If I ever did get around to restoring mine I'd say it would be a sympathetic job and I'd go to great lengths to obtain original style materials.

Some of the joys of ownership are discussions like this.

 

Here you go.

Best
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Each person has individual expectations during the restoration process. Napolis uses his cars and achieves a different kind of satisfaction then others do. Bravo Jim!
I have found that people who compete in business have a tendancy to carry that philosophy into their hobby as well. They want their car to be better, read show trophies, than others.
The more unfortunate side to all of this is that the cars have become so pristine that they live in seclusion and are seldom used or seen. Unfortunatley this is not unique to Ferraris alone. With prices on the rise we soon will have very few chances to see any vintage Fcars on the road.

David

 

Vintage cars are like 18th century American furniture. The value is in originality and patina. Yes, you can sit in the chair and drive the car and add more patina for the owner 100 years from now. But don't strip the finish and polish the brass if it's not needed. But unlike furniture, eventually a driver will need paint and in that case something that is close to the original in chemical compounds and color is nice. This is different than furniture where you never refinish it.

As for mechanicals, drivers need some modern help at times. For example, my car came with that 1960's era plastic gas line that deteriorates with modern gas. I have reploaced it all with modern rubber line as well as brass T's at the junctions. Without modifications like this, the car could no longer be driven. Some allowences should be made so we can continue to drive our cars, but at a concours I'm sure someone would deduct for that.

Ken

 

I agree, it could have the opposite effect, but my guess is that removing the "checkbook restorations" (in Dr. Who's fine phrase) would help deflate the market, if only because those who simply pay for restorations and who aren't as 'in touch' with their cars are (or at least seem) more likely to call for more 'perfect' restorations (in line with price) and seek to maximize their return at sale, and less likely to make the fine distinctions of preservation.

It is, of course, a moot point, for as the cars grow ever more expensive they take on a life of their own as 'investments' and status symbols, and, often sadly, begin to lose their life as cars and historical pieces.

We should also be careful: not all cars have the benefit of famous drivers' helmet dents, and the question of which history matters is always a tough one to decide (does an original oil filter matter? Original air in the tires? Original mechanics' mistakes and shortcuts?) - but it is a shame that so many of these cars have become so expensive that they almost cease to be thought of and used as what they were intended to be -- cars!

I know my life is undoubtedly be richer for having seen, one nice day in my childhood, a Lusso casually parked by its owner while he ran errands.

 

Jim,

What's the story of the dent over the fuel tank?

 

Thanks! As an aside David took care of J6 for many years for her previous owner and did a wonderful job. We are simply carrying on as he did.

Best