This is what I have heard: Yes, Reason - to keep parity with the 95/96 cars that were originally built with 2.7. Regards, Michael
Thanks Michael....I understand your comments. It does however lead me to another question. I have the 1999 355CH factory Ferrari publication that details all parts and their respective installation for owners of street cars to convert over to CH specifications. Let's say I purchased a 98 or 99 year model street car that has 5.2 Motronic single MAF to go racing......according to the complete CH parts listed in the publication no parts are shown or indicated for retofit conversion to 2.7M with dual MAF's. Am I missing something? Regards,Bruce
Yup. 10 to 20hp. Easily. M2.7 has dual intake MAFs (better flow) and only 2 O2 sensors in your exhaust. M5.2 has only 1 intake MAF and 4 O2 sensors clogging up your exhaust.
Yeah the 5.2 harware is a 'kick in the nuts' . So what do you think of the 'powerchip'??? The HP claims seem a little exagerated without any other mods such as cats or exhaust...... http://www.nicksforzaferrari.com/355_power2.pdf
My own opinion is that Ferrari left hp on the table to comply with emissions and fuel economy (gas guzzler tax when new anyway!) and aid in engine life as well as reduce their warranty/service costs. That being said, the best aftermarket "chips" are going to be custom-made for your specific car with your specific mods (although they *can* generically be very good on bone stock variants, too). I have no 5.2 experience with the specific chip that you mention above, however.
One of my friends has put "chips" on every ferrari he owns and swears by them! I drove his 512TR and it runs and sounds 'crazy' He claims to only have a chip and 'freeflow' air cleaners........ it pulls very hard though it sounds like it running on the ragged edge of timming... And yes i know its a 512 and not a 355 ..... but he keeps telling me to 'chip' my 355, it will make a "noticeable difference"......
Don't be sucked in goth. REad ND highly technical thread on aftermarket chips he has decompiled. And to Bruce...I think the change from 2.7-5.2 was a ferrari obd2 smog maneuver. I am not sure you can comply with obd2 with a 2.7. It lacks the additional monitoring circuits for the down stream o2 sensors that are part of obd2. Challenge cars where not titled after 1995 or 96 or street legal so slipped into USA without all the smog compliance. A change to 5.2 for no additional HP or money would be outside the normal operation of el cheapo ferrari. I could be wrong but that's my thinking.
I was told that the reason Ferrari went to the 5.2 was to save money and that the 2.7 was the cats meow.
M2.7 is extraordinarily advanced for that point in time. It ran the F50, 348 CLM's (2nd fastest at Le Mans 1994), 512M, and the highest hp 355's. But M2.7 is OBDI, which means that it is chip programmable. M5.2 is OBDII, which means that it is flash memory programmable as well as scan-able by generic emissions stations. M5.2 is more emission-conscious in other ways, too (e.g. it monitors your exhaust gasses before and *after* they pass through your cats...for emissions compliance). Is your fuel filler cap tightly closed? M5.2 checks. Well, if emissions are your bailiwick, then M5.2 is your go-to system...but if being competitive at Le Mans or blasting around a track in a 12 cylinder F50 or 512M floats your boat, then M2.7 is the cat's meow.
Thanks to EVERYONE for your great comments. But can anyone answer the question about 97-99 CH intake and ecu? All the info I have shows that there are in fact only a few factory produced CH cars. The factory cars were only built when 355CH series first started(95?) and only delivered to European teams(no USA)......all other CH cars were converted street cars i.e. you buy a street car and then buy the CH package for you to install. I prefer the 2.7 over 5.2(OBDI over OBDII) for several reasons. Thanks NoDoubt for the brain washing...I needed it...lol. In another thread I addressed the advantage of 1 MAF per cylinder bank vs 1 MAF for all 8 cyl. What I didn't tell you was, that on a 355 intake it appears that the ideal set-up(if you keep the speed density system i.e. keep the MAF's) is this: (1)if you have a 2.7 dual MAF...install the GruppeM 5.2 CF air intake(some mods required). On 5.2 single MAF the ideal set-up is this: Get rid of the 5.2...lol..and retofit with the 2.7 engine wiring harness/ecu, use dual MAF and GruppeM CF air intake(some mods required). NOTE: you might be in for a nice surprise on either set-up. I will go no further, and right now I don't have the time to explain the reasoning behind all of this.....it should be obvious enough. Exhaust? I have some ideas on this as well, some of which will surface in the thread titled "355 Exposed? Covered Up? or Overlooked?". Please....can someone answer my 97-99CH intake/ecu question?...lol.
Hi Bruce Is the publication you refer to 1460/99? As far as I know this just lists applicable stuff for that year. I have the corresponding book from 1995 - 942/95, which is of absolutely no assistance to your question, but none of the books between those 2. Perhaps someone can assist with the 96 or 97 equivalents. Bruce All is not entirely clear about factory built and "kit" Challenge cars. I understand there were more than a "few" factory cars. Ref QV500.com "However, a striking rear aerofoil was introduced from 1998. Perhaps the most far-reaching changes came inside where a roll cage, lightweight sports seats, six-point harnesses and a fire extinguishing system were found. There was also a dash-mounted electrical kill switch, a three-spoke Momo steering wheel and a lightweight battery in a cabin stripped bare of all unnecessary trim. 72 were built new by the factory, 13 of which were right-hand drive while maybe another 100 or so were fitted with Ferrari's after-market pack." Whether they are the definitive numbers I am not sure. I have a '97 build Challenge with 2.7. Sorry I can't specifically answer your question, but I have no doubt someone will know - maybe from Europe? John
Challenge 2.7 vs 5.2 My research so far has identified 189 cars, many of which would have been built from kit's. The great majority of the serial numbers are before #108351, I would assume that they are all 2.7 cars. I'll go on a limb here and say the Challenge cars after that chassis number probably all have 5.2, and therefore would not be eligible for racing under the rules. ( I have no evidence so far of any Challenge cup race history of cars with serial numbers > 108351. I would assume these cars were built up using Challenge kits, with the purpose of road use ? Bottom line, all race eligible 355Ch have 2.7, but there are some 5.2 cars that have Challenge kits fitted. Michael
John and Michael many thanks for posting that info. I will be in Houston next week and will be meeting with some people who were heavily involved with the 355 Challenge Series form start to finish. Hopefully they can set me straight....that is if we can stay out of the bars...or better yet from being behind bars...lol Regards, Bruce
Hi John, Yes, I have Ferrari publication 1460/99. It is very interesting reading and is quite straight forward. I found some things that were of interest to me, and maybe others: Are all Challenge cars 2.7? Is this what the series rules state? Page 5, Article 1(1460/99): Vehicle Definition All European and Swiss versions factory built Ferrari F355 Berlinetta Challenge fitted w/power steering are eligible. Also eligible is the vehicle type 129AB(Bosch 2.7) fitted w/power steering and converted to Challenge version by means of installing of appropriate kit..... According to THIS publication(no amendments) the only true "factory built" Challenge race cars were either Euro or Swiss.......NO USA CH cars were built by factory. You either had to buy one from these 2 markets and import, or buy a kit and convert your USA street car. Next it answers the 2.7 or 5.2 question I asked, which wrxmike gave the correct answer too. ALL 355CH's were 2.7........some 5.2 owners bought the coversion kit and installed but they were just street cars and not allowed to enter race series. The rule book does not say whether or not the CH ECU was different than street version. It simply states on Page 6 Article 4.1 (d) I'm paraphrasing The only Motronic ECU's which are allowed to be used will be provided by Ferrari "PRIOR TO" each race meeting. The provide ECU must be installed and sealed under the direction of the scrutineers, and must be removed at "The End" of each race meeting. You could not modify any wiring or sensors providing signals to ECU. So this does not really say if ECU was modified by the Ferrari Factory. It just says when you show up for the meet they will loan you one for the race and you have to return at the end. That rule may have been ammended, but I don't know. I wonder if their is any possible way to check a "genuine bona-fide" CH ECU(just because you own a CH doesn't mean you got the CH ECU with your car purchase), to see if there is any difference with street car ECU? I know that I have been told a hundred times their is no difference, but without comparing what the chip contains who can say. Did the F355 Fiorano series(5.2 Motronic) get the CH(2.7M) ECU programming since the 355 series was over? No Doubt, can you help out here?
Mail me a 355CH chip and a 355 street chip and I'll give you the definitive answer. No, scratch that. 5.2 has flash memory, not chips. Plus 5.2 has 4 O2 sensors instead of the 2.7's 2 O2 sensors. Really couldn't be the same programming.
You could dump the data from a street 2.7 and the data from 2.7CH...they are both using a removeable chip....one problem is I don't have either...storey of my life, dang-it... The 5.2 for sure has chip soldered in. What is interesting is the Cat. ECU. When by-pass valve opens it appears O2 sensors(2.7,5.2) are worthless. It also appears that the Cat ECU has to be receiving and transmitting data signals....what other sensor data it is receiving and what all it is transmitting, I don't have even the slightest clue. I know I am really speculating and goin hog wild with this, but if the alphaN tables are different in 2.7 street vs 2.7CH, the 2.7 alphaN table data can be transfered into the 5.2 ECU........am I totally whacko on all of this? Am I using the term alphaN incorrectly? If "emissions mode control" is goverened by O2 sensors and other sensors, when the O2 sensors signal is no longer useful, let's say mid to wide-open throttle(whenever by-pass valve opens and the O2 sensored exhaust system is basically non functional)....the 2.7 and 5.2 are establishing the F/A ratio without any O2 sensor signal input. So if the 2.7 has only 2 O2 sensors and the 5.2 has 4.....it shouldn't make any difference since they are off-line from approx 3500 to 9000 rpm. I think I'm beginning to halucinate...lol Would you please starighten me out, before I run to the store and buy a gallon of JD....
My CH has the exhaust bypass removed - what does that do to the 02 sensors? Regarding the "CH Chip", I read in the rules somewhere that they could swap ECU's from car to car at the organisers whim - inferring you could come with your own "trick" chip and it could finish up on a competitors car - clever
Hi Jim, I imagined today filled with peace an tranquility. BUT, you have hit a nerve with your first question.....lol....lol.. The O2 sensors f-up an already sh*tty exhaust system. I'm goin to make some assumtions here that anyone with more knowledge can shoot holes in. The 2.7M has great safety guards built-in and is re-chipable....this is great. With someone like ND at the helm, he can do some of his magic on this little emission designed ems. It appears that the cat ecu stays "in-place and on-line" in the CH. But when you remove the by-pass valve, you loose it's output signal, that either the cat. or engine ecu uses in the street car. So, if you loose the by-pass signal it tells me that other sensor output signals are being received by either the cat. ecu or engine ecu in A/F ratio calculations. The O2 sensors output signal somehow(in relation to engine rpm, manifold vacuum(??), or other sensors) is being used at low engine output, because in the CH the CEL light may at times light-up. But at higher engine output the O2 sensor signal is ignored(useless) and A/F ratios are calulated from internally pre-programed tables in the chip. The reason CEL light comes on in CH is due to the fact that exhaust at low engine output(low rpms) is trying to escape thru both the primary and secondary exhaust systems which do not give the O2 sensors an accurate sampling of the exhaust gasses. At higher rpms something very interesting happens, especially in the street car set-up. I will not get into it here.....that will be discussed in detail in the thread titled "355 Exposed? Covered? or Overlooked?". I hate the whole exhaust system in general, and the by-pass in particular. Ferrari tried to satisfy the customer and EPA...but it is not the best it could be. As for the "back pressure=low end torque", or "it was tuned to the intake" theories. All I can say at this point is, make sure you have your suit and tie ready, because we may be attending a funeral for the both of them...lol Regarding the ECU swap. That may be so in publication 942/95. But in how I read page 6, Article 4.1 in publication 1460/99......swapping out between cars has been superceeded and replaced. I have no ammendments to the contrary for the 1999 Challenge race series.
Bruce, I'm not really sure what you are doing but if you are not racing your 355 in a series thus rules limited and you are going for big HP that is using the 5.2 motronic aren't you going to need to scrap the ecus for an aftermarket motec or similar and basically redesign just about everything anyway?
Well the scrap pile grows everyday..lol. Though the 5.2M is great,it may have limits that are unacceptable or unfixable. With it's fail safe features it can't be touched by aftermarket stuff. I am hesitant right now, at this point, to toss it. We will be looking at the 5.2M from every angle before making a final decision. We are also looking at the 2.7M as an alternative also. The ONLY reason the 2.7M or 5.2M is even in the picture at all, is that the final product is going to be "street legal"(please don't push me for a definition of this term..lol). "Cheatin" as much as we can, it will be a close call to say the least. Just hope the cop's don't have any electronic gear in their cars for analysis...lol
Well I am not sure how 2.7's are programmed for 355's. Maybe ND can run a copy if someone voluteers to pony up a 2.7. I do have extra 2.7 ecus if you need them. I bought them years ago before we had ND as a resource to jimmy the 348 2.7's. I see the only advantage to 2.7 motronic is the robustness of an oem system. I never have truely experianced a aftermarket ecu that worked for years untouched with all the temp changes now rain ice etc that the modern oem ecu must survive. The inputs into the 2.7 ecu are known in the wiring diagrams on 348's and assume the same with 355's so then you could conceiveably make your own wiring harness and have nd design the chip and you are good to go. As to smog the miniute you yank the cats and tamper with the engine you are illegal so maybe the term should be smog numbers compliant which you should be able to hide from prying eyes who really don't understand what they are testing anyway. When I had my old 308 Ican remember at least 3-4 times the smog tech thought the a/c compressor was the smog pump!
