355 header with NO heat damage (35,000 miles) | FerrariChat

355 header with NO heat damage (35,000 miles)

Discussion in '348/355' started by eulk328, Jan 23, 2010.

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  1. eulk328

    eulk328 F1 Rookie

    Feb 18, 2005
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    #1 eulk328, Jan 23, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Just pulled the shielding off my original (to my knowledge) left-hand header. 1996 5.2 355 with 35,000 miles.

    There is absolutely no sign of any damage or over-heating/impending failure etc.

    I understand that the right-hand header is more prone to problems but I have a good feeling about that one since the left-hand one looks like new.

    After reading some of the posts and the problems with some rebuilt QV headers I decided that I want to be able to see my header tubes. I will get them ceramic coated on the outside and make up some heat shields for various bits. I feel more comfortable about this now. My original headers will probably last a very long time now with the heat shields removed (well, one of them so far). Again, this is the original header to my knowledge. The previous owner, who had the car 5~6 years, told me that he never had them changed and seemed certain they were original.

    There will be more heat in the engine compartment but the headers will also cool off faster and removal of all 4 cats. and the use of a Challenge grille will go a long way, I think, to compensate for the lack of heat shielding.

    I know that other people had headers fail at much lower mileage and there are some people that have more mileage than mine with the OEM headers with heatshields and theirs still appear to be good. This seems to indicate, as others have theorized, that there may have been bad batches of headers now and then. Or it could be that other people that had problems always ran with the cats. installed, or they had lean running conditions for some reason. Or..... maybe just luck.


    Just for reference... the header weighs 11 lbs. (without the heat shielding).
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  2. Jerrari

    Jerrari F1 Veteran

    Jul 24, 2001
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    Wow, that's surprising yet great news for sure. Doesn't the ceramic coating get inside the header as well? Who are you sending it to for this?
     
  3. eulk328

    eulk328 F1 Rookie

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    Ceramic coating can be sprayed on so you can get just the outside done. I'm guessing you can also get them submerged in a bath to coat everything but I'm not going to go that route.

    I was thinking of sending them to Swaintech but I'm not sure now as they seem to be unable or unwilling to ceramic coat my air boxes.


     
  4. BrandSB

    BrandSB Karting

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    #4 BrandSB, Jan 23, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Very interesting. Here's a shot of my new ceramic coated headers ready for install. I didn't realize the OE's looked so similar sans shielding...wondering how the aftermarkets are getting the cited 20hp gain? Maybe equal-length? Measured the inlets and outlets and they're the same. These also weigh 11 lbs.
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  5. eulk328

    eulk328 F1 Rookie

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    #5 eulk328, Jan 23, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2010
    If you do a bit of searching you will also find people that say the aftermarket headers cause a loss of horsepower or torque. Ferrari have been racing at the highest levels of motorsport for decades. They know a few things about designing exhaust systems and have vastly more experience than the aftermarket companies. I cannot imagine other companies "found" horsepower that Ferrari "missed."

    Mufflers are another story as Ferrari have to comply to different countries noise laws and customer's expectations. Aftermarket exhaust manufacturers can make sweet sounding, crazy loud mufflers that they sell as "For off road use only" or something like that. Also, if a customer buys an aftermarket exhaust for cars like these it's almost a given that they want (and therefore are willing to tolerate) a louder sound and possibly a nasty resonance at a certain frequency or frequencies. In this instance aftermarket manufacturers may be able to "find" a bit more horsepower in the muffler design (but not because they were more clever than Ferrari).

    If you look at the photo of my naked Ansa O.E.M. header and your aftermarket header you will see that the O.E.M. first goes from two pipes into one and the other two pipes into one and then these two resulting pipes into one final pipe (4-2-1). Rest assured that Ferrari decided on this for a reason and told Ansa to build it this way. On yours it goes from four single pipes into one final pipe (4-1). There are advantages and disadvantages to both designs. Also the different designs can have a higher peak horsepower for one while the other may have a better torque spread. It can't simply be stated that one design is better than the other but I'm certain Ferrari chose the best compromise for this engine. They designed the whole package.

    Construction quality can be another story too. There can be companies that use better material, make better welds etc. than the ones Ferrari have made to their specs. by Ansa or whoever.... (maybe some worse too)


     
  6. BrandSB

    BrandSB Karting

    Jun 11, 2008
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    I believe you're correct regarding the collector differences. My headers are described as 'F1 Collector' design which I'm assuming means 4-1. Looking at the Dyno chart for the headers there's a noticeable drop at low RPM's and an increase over stock at high RPM's. This would be consistent with your assertion that the OE's are 4-2-1 and these look like 4-1. Probably losing torque-hp at low RPM (not great) but making it up on the top-end. Makes more sense now.
     
  7. UConn Husky

    UConn Husky F1 Rookie

    Nov 11, 2006
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    Lookin' good Steve!!!

    Yes I had mine coated inside and out too, that's the best way to go. BUT on used headers you'll need to clean the insides very well to get good adhesion, and that's no easy task. Only think I could think of is a slurry honing process to polish inside of the tubes.
     
  8. race850i

    race850i Karting

    Jan 6, 2010
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    Themis
    what I have heard from a very popular european Exhaust maker is that the best header Design for the 355 its the OEM header. He had a several aftermarket headers on the Dyno and all had lower hp than the Original..
    I quite believe him just because he has the expirience.

    Themis
     
  9. Mitch Alsup

    Mitch Alsup F1 Veteran

    Nov 4, 2003
    9,724
    The only visible flow difference is that the coated header has its output pipe pointed at the Y-pipe, whereas the Ferrari header has its output pipe pointed at the main cat. Thus, when the bypass valve is opened there might (MIGHT) be some minor advantage in flow through the y-pipes. 5 HP maybe, 20HP only if there was something wrong with the headers taken off (like deformed tubing). Also note, the coating versus metalic shield will change the velocity of the exhaust flow and could change the lengths of the tubes needed (by an inch of so) to optimize the exhaust resonnances to the intake resonances.

    The agrument about the 4-2-1 verusus 4-1 collectors is doubtful due to the very short -2- runner. Normal 4-2-1 systems have the -2- pipe about or slight longer than the main (first)pipe. 4-2-1 systems are generally for midrange, 4-1 systems are for power.
     
  10. Simba

    Simba Formula Junior

    Oct 24, 2006
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    #10 Simba, Jan 25, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2010
    ... and their road cars for the last 30-odd years have had exactly nothing to do with their racing efforts, beyond the very high level trickle-down engineering and metallurgy.

    Ferrari did not make the 355 headers with the sole, primary goal of producing peak power in a tiny (race car) rev range. They made them to support a broad range of power, and the emissions requirements (e.g. the air injectors) applicable to a street car.

    While I've no doubt Ferrari doesn't "miss" any horsepower when they're building exhaust systems for race cars, they most certainly do live with trade-offs necessary to produce street cars. And those trade-offs most certainly can be massaged to find more power, usually in this instance at the cost of torque, midrange power and/or emissions hardware.
     
  11. f355jimv

    f355jimv Formula Junior

    Jan 21, 2008
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    Well said.
     
  12. BLAMPEE

    BLAMPEE Man Card Status: Never Issued

    :::raises hand:::

    That's ME!

    :D
     
  13. JSBMD

    JSBMD Formula Junior

    Mar 17, 2007
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    Agree with all that's been said here, but would add my 2+ yrs experience with Fabspeed headers, same as shown in the 2nd set of pics here. As stated, in theory 4-1 design should give an increase in high rpm hp at the expense of some midrange torque. My very first reaction to the new Fabspeeds was exactly that: slight loss in 2500-4500 torque, but a renewed frenzy above 4500. I noticed this immediately after install, at which point there still were no dyno postings yet. Later dyno results from Fabspeed themselves confirmed my seat of the pants impression. Therefore, I for one believe the 20 or so hp gain at top end with a 10-15 ft-lb loss in the midrange. Need to disclose, though, that I put Fabspeed 200 cell cats on at the same time as the headers, which only would exaggerate these same effects.

    Eulk, I'm impressed that those headers look so good after 35,000 miles. Does that mean you aren't driving the car hard enough? I have to say that I'd do the same as you (keep them and just have them coated), but definitely get the underhood heat shields for the alternator.

    John
     
  14. hacker-pschorr

    hacker-pschorr Formula Junior

    Sep 27, 2006
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    Land of Lambeau
    #14 hacker-pschorr, Jan 25, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2010
    Here's my endorsement for factory headers with the covers removed then coated by SwainTech.

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=138655371&postcount=17

    IMO the factory headers are fine, the #1 problem is the wrap job under the cover. This is what the headers looked like on my fathers car with less than 10,000 miles on them. Notice how much header surface is no longer covered due to the wrap settling. This is causing hot / cool spots which is not exactly ideal. A good coating on the factory headers will keep the tubes at a more uniform temperature.

    http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showpost.php?p=138620384&postcount=2
     
  15. eulk328

    eulk328 F1 Rookie

    Feb 18, 2005
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    ".. and their road cars for the last 30-odd years have had exactly nothing to do with their racing efforts, beyond the very high level trickle-down engineering and metallurgy. "

    Huh???



    "Ferrari did not make the 355 headers with the sole, primary goal of producing peak power in a tiny (race car) rev range. They made them to support a broad range of power, and the emissions requirements (e.g. the air injectors) applicable to a street car. "

    I certainly didn't say that they did.



    "While I've no doubt Ferrari doesn't "miss" any horsepower when they're building exhaust systems for race cars, they most certainly do live with trade-offs necessary to produce street cars. And those trade-offs most certainly can be massaged to find more power, usually in this instance at the cost of torque, midrange power and/or emissions hardware"

    gee.... I think I said this, more or less, in my post


     
  16. eulk328

    eulk328 F1 Rookie

    Feb 18, 2005
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    Yes, the header does look nice. Having said that I haven't done the right-hand header yet and it seems to be more troublesome (don't understand why) according to some folks. Since I haven't owned the car since new the possibility exists that they were changed but certainly not by the previous owner of 5~6 years (don't have all the receipts/documents for the car either).

    I have not had the car very long (about half a year) and have not driven it hard nor have I put many miles on it.
     
  17. eulk328

    eulk328 F1 Rookie

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    Good point. I didn't even notice that before.
     

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