Hi, I'm aware that the spring subject has already been covered in several threads and I got a lot of very usefull information from it. As you know, Ferrari has 3 different springs available for the F430. I attached a document which contains all the specifications of the Ferrari springs. The question is : from this data, it there a way to calculate the spring rate of the yellow, white and red springs? I made several attempts but couldn't come to a concrete spring rate value in N/cm or lb/inch. I'm considering to move in the future for the H&R springs referenced as 29 405-1. (AFCO isn't available in Europe). From the TUV document, it is mentionned that they lower the car between 2-3cm. But I couldn't find any information about the spring rate. I'm not really interested in lower my car but make the springs much stiffer than stock red. The last question is about how my Ferrari dealer changed the front springs. I had initially the yellow one which were dramatically too soft. They changed them for the red one which is a bit stiffer. But as you can see on the attached picture, I found out that they completely damaged the right spring when installing it (the springs were bright new!). Lot's of protection paint is gone and you can see the steel everywhere. I got so furious! Now they offer me just to respray it. Does it make sense to just respray a spring? I suppose that a spring is not just painted but has a specific protection coat which wouldn't crack when the spring doing its work. Thanks in advance for your advices on these 3 spring related topics Stef Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login Image Unavailable, Please Login
Stef- I was just going to post the same chart from the F430 workshop manual and will since I have converted it to a jpeg. The red, yellow, white (or no color) markings are not set up as weak spring, strong spring for tuning suspension. All the springs are made as one type with one part number and then the manufacturer measures the springs, pairs them up and puts a color on them, due to manufacturing tolerances, telling you the appropriate shock absorber length/setting to use. They do not set out to make red or yellow springs, they just come out that way. There is no designed difference in the spring rates of red, yellow, or white springs. If you want to calculate the spring rate vs travel of the spring, you could use the static load length vs the dynamic load length and extrapolate the load static vs compressed (dynamic). The tolerance of 13.88 kg is applied to the yellow springs as 462.5 - 13.88 or 448.62 kg and added to the red springs or 462.5 + 13.88 or 476.38 kg. Maximum difference between red and yellow is 27.76 kg, see below for minimum difference, and it would probably take a pretty educated rear end to feel that difference, especially after the shock absorber length was adjusted. Static load length 159.9 mm - dynamic load length 115.9 mm = 44 mm or 4.4 cm. For yellow 448.62 kg/4.4 cm = 101.96 kgs/cm minimum for yellow and 108.27 kgs/cm maximum for red. Note not all yellows are the full 13.88 kgs weaker and all the reds are not 13.88 kg stronger. Somewhere they have a little tolerance sheet and in this case it says plus or minus 4.6+ kg is red or yellow, otherwise white, so there could be as little as 9.2kgs difference between a set of yellows and reds. If the springs are outside the 13.88 kg tolerance, they are tossed. One thing you might consider is using Scuderia/16M springs, which are stiffer. Unfortunately I have no data on the Scuderia springs. The parts number for the front Scud springs is 229640 and for the rears is 230574. Your local Ferreri dealer can give you the specs on those springs. If you provide the data sheet below to H&R, Eibach, etc, they probably can make a recommendation. Taz Terry Phillips Image Unavailable, Please Login
I'd have them powdercoated rather than painted and believe the 350 degree temperature of the baking process shouldn't harm the spring material. They probably had to use a spring compression tool with arms to install the springs and it chipped the paint. Not unheard of, but there other ways of doing it that won't harm the cosmetics.
They are all black Anders but Yellow and Red springs have a yellow or red stamp on it. "White" do not have any stamp, just plain black. Cheers, Stef
Thanks very much Taz for putting me on the right calculation path . As you can see below, I did put together all the values for the F430 and Scuderia which is getting very interesting when you start comparing them. I decided to go for the Red Scuderia spring for my F430 instead of an aftermarket solution. The Red Scuderia springs have a very good stiff rate which should be large enough. Please tell me what you think about this. Image Unavailable, Please Login
Thanks. I am not used with those words when talking Ferrari Parts. Just paid 380 USD for the rubber part at the door mirror. One side. //A.
Stef- Nice table, which I will steal for future use. As predicted, the Scud springs are considerably stiffer. Good choice on those because you know they are set up for your car. Add the Scud front and rear (rear same as CS) anti-roll bars and bushings and you should have a really good handling car. The bars are kind of expensive, though. The Scud Shock Absorber ECU might also help, if it will fit. 575M owners do what you are doing all the time. Adding Fiorano Handling Package rear anti-roll bars and springs, plus the FHP steering ECU. We have had good luck upgrading Shock Absorber ECUs for better handling, too. Where did you get the Scud data? I only have the F430 WSM and have not seen a Scud WSM. Saw a CS WSM, but missed it. Taz Terry Phillips
Thanks Taz, no unfortunately I don't have the Scud WSM. I got the Scud spring details from my dealer who was nice to share it with me. After, it was easy to put all the spring details together to help me to decide. Thanks for the advice about the Scud anti-roll bars and bearings. That may also help in improve the global handling of the F430. I'll ask for a price offer. I have to find out what's the difference between the F430 Skyhook ECU and the one installed on the Scud (if there is any difference). Stef
Stef- The ECU is Probably a bit faster reacting on the Scuderia and schedules stiffer settings on the shocks. Here are the F430 and Scuderia parts numbers. Price is pretty good on the F430 ECU. If the Scud ECU price is similar, it would be a good deal. They can be over $2000 for a 575M. I did not see anything added to the Scud from the F430 that would make the ECUs functionally different, except for the algorithms, and those will not affect fit or compatibility. 569 euros from Eurospares, no price in Ricambi. Very good deal. http://www.ricambiamerica.com/product_info.php?products_id=262523 http://www.ricambiamerica.com/parts_catalogs.php?M=FE&P=&V=diag&I=110082 http://www.eurospares.co.uk/searchResult.asp?find=&M=&Mo=&A=&B=&S=244466 Taz Terry Phillips
I've been told that the Scud anti-roll bars are not stronger than those on the F430. They are just lighter coz hallow. Although, the anti-roll bars on the F430Challenge are stronger as well as the bearings. But this is getting close to a 10K upgrade then...I'll try out first with the 4 Scud springs + alignment and see how the result is. Maybe there is no need to go further as I want to keep some budget for the entire exhaust line upgrade
Checked the Scuderia springs 229640/229955 with EuSpares in GB. Around 1.700USD / each. Aren´t they made of Titan? Well this is nothing for me. Will get the spec. on the H&R Sport Springs instead. //A
Just ordered the Scuderia 1 springs 229640/229955 in steel. 1/10th of the price of titan once. Thanks for help. //Anders
You were right StefVan. 3 different springs on same spare part number. Never heard of any manufacturer doing this trick. Must be misstakes all the way. Well - got my hands of 3. Missing one rear. Out of stock at Ferrari. Now the question is - Shall I go for the 3 springs, start the big job with changing them on the car - and then maybe never get the last on? Ferrari maybe only want to sell the newer ones in titanium at 10 times the price?
I have some stiffer front springs we have used for customers that had this issue they are from afco. 450lb front rates 10 inch length. They will solve the soft issue in the front of the car. If your interested I can sell these cheap $140 for both fronts.
Thanks Anders. If you can't wait for the 4th spring, maybe you can start only with the front springs and do an alignement. Then, when you'll receive the missing one, get the rear springs installed and do again an alignement. Cheers, Stef
Thanks Rob - If I were in US I would have taken your offer. To Sweden I have to pay freight / toll and 25% VAT. This is really no good at all. Thanks anyway. //Anders
Anders- Springs are normally sold in matched pairs. I would not buy a single spring. Even with the same color marking, the springs can differ in strength quite a bit. Taz Terry Phillips
In my scud I changed for Eibach linear front 450 lb and rear 600 lb . Handles great and no bumper scratch.
Just to keep this thread also updated: I got the new alignment values with the Scuderia stiffest red front + rear springs and the car lowered as follows : Front: 8.3 cm between wheel rim edge and fender edge (in stead of 10 cm) Rear : 10 cm between wheel rim edge and fender edge (in stead of 12 cm) New Michelin PS2 front + rear tires / full fuel tank / 65kg load Rear Alignment values (before / after) Camber Left: -2°47' -> -1°47' Camber Right: -2°46' -> -1°44' Toe-in Left: +4.8mm -> +1.6mm Toe-in Right: +1.0mm -> +1.6mm Toe-in Total: +5.8mm -> +3.2mm Toe-in Diff: +6.7mm -> +0.8mm Front Alignement values (before / after) Camber Left: -1°56' -> -1°37' Camber Right: -1°45' -> -1°31' Toe-in Left: +2.1mm -> +1.5mm Toe-in Right: +1.6mm -> +1.6mm Toe-in Total: +3.7mm -> +3.1mm Toe-in Diff: 0mm -> -1.1mm Caster 20° Left: +5°58' -> +5°50' Caster 20° Right: +5°56' -> +5°49' Left Max steering Left Wheel: +21°36' -> +29°00' Left Max steering Right: +20°57' -> +26°19' Right Max steering Left Wheel: +29°29' -> +26°41' Right Max steering Right Wheel: +32°48' -> +29°29' As you can see, my car needed a serious alignment !!! I should have the car back by the end of this week and if the weather is kind enough to let me drive, I'll post my impressions (which will be much more subjective than the about figures ) Below, a picture of the old and new springs. No visible difference but the caracteristics difference is huge. Stef Image Unavailable, Please Login
Stef- Will be interested in how they work for you. Mix and match of OEM parts can be very beneficial until the new old stock parts run out and Ferrari has to order more. The 575M HGTC springs were about $250 each for the first 10 or 12 owners who bought NOS springs to improve handling. Now they are $900+ for the newly manufactured ones. So if anybody wants a reasonable price to upgrade their handling with Scud parts, do it quickly before the old spare parts are all gone. We have not seen that for ECUs yet, only hardware. The ECUs Ferrari uses are quite often generic. Only the software drives up the price, so it does not cost Ferrari as much to build some more ECUs. Taz Terry Phillips
Thanks Terry for your interesting feedback. Can you imagine that I paid the Scud steel springs only 110$ each! I had no difficulties getting them through my official Ferrari dealer but you're right, I may not last long. The titanium springs remain very expensive though (1.200$ each) and found it wasn't justified as they provide only a slight stiffer spring rate. Stef
