328 Air-conditioning

Ross,

See the thread from BlueMax, he was nice enough to list out all the new parts he used
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=285203&page=5

I'm planning on doing this (hopefully before summer)

-Brian

 

If the compressor is not broken, IT is not the problem - if it's a York (like the US model), that compressor easily cooled the biggest US cars around - Chrysler Imperials, etc. A new compressor will be quieter/smoother but it won't cool any better because compressor capacity is not the issue for these cars and the York actually has more capacity than the Sanden's that are quite popular.

The bluemax thread is a good one but replace the expansion valve as well - as I recall, he didn't do that.

Now here's a tip for the 328 that made a noticeable difference for me. To the rear of the condenser is a louvered panel, screwed in place by 6 screws accessable from the passenger wheel well. Remove that panel and replace it with a piece of mesh. This will greatly increase airflow across the condenser and improve performance, especially at slow speed. The louvered panel heavily obstructs airflow through the condenser.

Here's a pic of the oem panel and the screen I used (after painting it black) and a pic of the screen in place:

 

Here's another site with a recharge/refurbish post specifically re the 328. The basic system is the same as the 308 but the condenser setup is completely different. The removal of the panel per my previous post only applies to the 328 with its isolated condensor unit/dedicated fan.

http://ferrari.cdyn.com/carl_rose_docs/Ferrari%20328%20AC%20Recharge.pdf

 

I remember when you talked about this before, Mike, and I thought it was a good idea. The stacked condenser is definitely the bottle neck for this system. I'd be a little more comfortable with a smaller mesh size though. I could see stuff getting thrown in there pretty easily.

 

"I'd be a little more comfortable with a smaller mesh size though"

Wouldn't argue with that - I was actually looking for some heavy 1/4" "screen" mesh (first one here: http://www.twpinc.com/twpinc/products/CATALOG1/TWPCAT_12

but the local hardware store was out and that mesh was the next best thing. I "intended" to replace it at some point with the 1/4" stuff but I just never got around to it - maybe this year!

 

Just stay the hell away from R134 unless you just WANT it to blow warmer

 

That link is great! thanks. I've been prowling around here for years, servicing my own AC, and had never seen that one. what a good writeup.

 

Carl did a great write up. I used it last year when I rebuilt my compressor. The only thing I found at issue in his write up is that he WAY overcharged his system. Consequently, it didn't hold the seal and he ended up just replacing his compressor. I think that is a better idea, because I rebuilt mine last year and the seal at the shaft is already leaking oil. I don't think the rebuild seals are very good or maybe the DIYer just can't get it installed right (me?). There's another thread on the A/C where the poster mentions this about the seal and that he spoke with the manufacturer about the new compressors and that they are much better built. I'll probably just replace mine when I get done with all the other work I'm doing.

That'll all have to wait a week though. I'm off to Disney World in about 20 minutes.

Just...can't....stay....off....Fchat....

 

A critical thing to be aware of (I wasn't at the time and did the same thing that he did - overcharge the system) is that a faulty expansion valve will cause the "too low" low side pressures which makes you believe you need to keep adding refrigerant. So it's vital to replace the exp valve, ESPECIALLY if the system was retrofitted with R134. If that was done and the system wasn't totally purged to ensure NONE of the old oil was in there, the valve's function was compromised due to the incompatibility of R12 and R134 oil. The incompatibility will clog the exp valve. My 328, even with 5 cans of Duracool, never got more than around 15 PSI at the low side; it should be around 30 and, per duracool, 2 cans should do it. It cooled fairly well but I'm convinced the new exp valve will sort it out.

But overall (I have since learned) replacing the exp valve should be a "normal" function of system rebuild. A generic exp valve is 20-30 bucks. The problem is finding which generic valve fits the Ferrari system. Be assured that one of them does since F didn't make exp valves! But finding which one has proven to be a problem, at least for me. I will be replacing the valve/purging the system on my 328 in May, when I am reunited with my 328. I would think you could just remove the valve, take it into a shop and ask them to match it. I will do that when the time comes. BUT, if that doesn't work, I will pony up the bucks for the Ricambi exp valve.

 

I had issues with my air cond. a few years ago. Eventually, Bobileff replaced the compressor with the exact same one, replaced the expansion valve, and I don't recall what elso (we chased the problem for a couple of years). One all of this was corrected, the car still blows VERY cold three years later, with no loss of freon. The original set up works fine now, but replacing the parts is what did the trick. I wouldn't necessarily convert the system to non-original as it does not seem to be necessary, specially if originality is a concern for you (it was for me).

Alberto

 

What follows is a bit lengthy and I have to clearly point out that I am NOT an air conditioner tech. Until a year ago, I had never fooled with ac other that adding a can of R12 now and then to systems back in the "old days." Now I have vac pump, gauges, etc, and have purged/vacced/recharged my 328's system, improving it from what a commercial shop did when they performed that operation. So everything posted below is based on fooling with my 328 and doing a LOT of reading, both on the internet and in real books (remember those?). BUT it is NOT based on years of personal experience.

I've been doing a bunch more research and have to admit that I'm close to the point of paying the bucks for the Ricambi expansion valve for the 328. I have yet to be able to find a positive cross for the 328 exp valve with anything else. As I said in another post, I'm sure it exists but I haven't found it. The 308/328 exp valves are different - the 328 valve has a equalization tube/the 308 does not.

The problem I'm finding is not that there aren't expansion valves that appear that they would fit - I have found several that I believe have the correct fittings with the only apparent difference being in the length of the copper tubes used for the sensing. That's not an issue if the tubes are longer than necessary, you just coil them.

What I've learned is that exp valves can be different for R12 and R134 AND exp valves are different based on the size (amount of refrigerant) of the system. SO...if you buy an exp valve with the correct fittings BUT it was a valve used for a larger or smaller system, it won't work properly. Same way, if you are wanting to use R12 but buy a exp valve for 134 (or visa versa) it won't deliver the proper performance. I have found valves that say "134" on them but other valves that are used in 134 systems don't have any label on them at all.

This brings up a whole "'nother" issue. For the folks that converted to 134 - like the PO of my 328, did they change the exp valve to the correct one/change it at all? I suspect not. Did they flush the system to get rid of the incompatible oil so as to not clog the expansion valve due to incompatible oils? I suspect not. My system - currently charged with duracool, works fairly well but has the symptoms of a clogged exp valve.

It seem to me that the only way to even establish a baseline is to replace the exp valve and the dryer and "start over." The dryer is a common part but also is different internally for R12/134 due to the oil difference. If you are converting to 134 then before installing the new exp valve and dryer, the system has to be flushed (THOUGH NOT the compressor) and the compressor oil drained/replaced with the correct oil. The hoses should also be changed to barrier type. NOTE that I am NOT suggesting a conversion to 134 - I don't want Dr. Tom yelling at me!

But re 134, companies like Vintage Air and AMA automotive, who do a lot of ac work on vintage cars, note that 134 requires 20% more condenser area than R12 does for the same performance. Vintage Air talks about how they managed to get that capacity increase without a change in external dimensions by developing a condenser with flat tubing instead of round tube. So it may be possible to get a vintage-air condenser that would fit in the 328 (or 308) space and would provide the additional capacity. But that shouldn't be necessary if using R12 or something like Duracool (which is flammable and, in some States, illegal for purchase to use in auto ac). But their information confirms what is generally well known - you can't put 134 in a system designed for R12 and get the same performance. It APPEARS that Duracool and other similar products equal R12 but there is the flammability/legality issue to consider. However, it's worth noting that those refrigerants are legal in non-mobile ac units and it's entirely possible that at some point they will be certified for cars but the appropriate testing/certification has not been done, at least in the US.

The compressor is often mentioned as a weak point in the system. But, as I have noted before, that York was used on some of the largest US cars ever made and it worked fine. Vintage Air also notes that it's an excellent compressor and is especially effective at low RPM - as in around town - more so than the newer, more efficient compressors. So if the York is working properly, there MAY be nothing to be gained as far as performance in replacing it.

I say "MAY" be nothing to be gained because I have also learned that compressor size also has an effect on performance. It seems obvious that a compressor that's too small would be a problem but one that's too large for the job is also a problem. So I have to admit that I now wonder if the York is actually oversized for the job. But I don't know enough about system sizing/capability to even hazard a guess about that. Clearly a newer compressor is more efficient (uses less HP) and is quieter than the York but personally, I would not (from what I understand so far) replace a properly working York.

As far as that expansion valve, I found quite a few of them at AMA that look like they would work - here's one of them: http://www.ackits.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=01&Product_Code=31-10904&Category_Code=

BUT, again, if it's not the correct valve for the refrigerant and the system size, it's not right. And, like the owner of AMA notes in his FAQ section and also in many of his posts, "Do it right and do it ONCE!" (FWIW, the AMA owner is very much against the use of Duracool and other such refrigerants) So frankly, I'd rather pay the price for the exp valve from Ricambi and do it once as opposed to trying a valve that I have no idea if it will work properly and having to do it over - even though the Ricambi part is 10x the price. Again, I'm sure there is a valve that is a match but unless I know that for sure, it's silly to "hope" that I'm lucky. True, one could purchase 4-5 different valves for half the price of the "correct" one but when you figure the work involved in removing/replacing valves until you hopefully, get the right one isn't worth the trouble.

I am considering taking the test/getting the license - less than 20 bucks on the internet - to purchase R12 and going back to it. It's still readily available but I haven't decided about that.

Again, I'm not claiming to be any sort of real expert and I'm sure there are folks here with a lot more actual experience and technical knowledge than I have on this subject. I am not making any recommendations to anyone. But the above is what I have concluded (in my own mind) so far...

 

Thanks for posting the link and your thoughts. In regards to the exp. valve you think may work, we can certainly match the size of the fittings and the sensing tubes, but the one "mystery" (to me at least) seems to be the tonnage rating. This one you list has a rating of 1.5T, I've seen similar-sized valves but different ratings (2T for example). Does anyone know what the tonnage rating for the Ferrari valve is? Can this even be messured? I think once that is known, then it can be (easily? ) matched up.

 

Re tonnage rating -

Thanks, it didn't correlate to me that the "1.5T" was the tonnage rating! It didn't register to me at all!

Now, as you noted, we just need to figure out the tonnage rating of the ac system. Seems that there should be a way to do that based on condenser size/compressor rating but I'm too math-challenged to figure out how to do that!

Of course, on a car that tonnage would - I assume - change based on eng RPM since the compressor RPM varies with eng RPM, unlike a home ac unit where the compressor runs at a constant speed when engaged.

 

taken from the 308 /328 sticky cross ref thread. all the parts are listed here guys. use the tools available to you.

i will be doing this upgrade to my 328 once it arrives and the t belts are done.

 

"taken from the 308 /328 sticky cross ref thread. all the parts are listed here guys. use the tools available to you."

Thanks. I believe I have read every ac post on this website, including that one. The exp valve specified in that thread is the 308 exp valve; the 328 exp valve is the one under discussion and, as I said in an earlier post, it is not the same one and I have never found a cross for it. That doesn't mean I couldn't have missed it somewhere but based on some PMs I received, no one else has found it either.

 

we will be cross referencing it when my car gets here. Joe thinks its a KIA part that is easy to find.

 

My approach to this whole issue is to put it back to "as-delivered" condition and evaluate it from there. All these 328s are over 30 years old and, from what I can tell, none of us here are original owners. So we don't really have any first-hand experience of how well the ac worked when the cars were new.

I know we generally agree that 3x8 ac is poor by design compared to US cars of the same era. But is that based on our 30+ year-old cars with who-knows-what done to the systems over the years or based on driving off the lot in 1989 with a new 328 or before that with a new 308? Most road tests I've read on the 328 seem to indicate that the ac was OK but that wasn't a big priority for the testers so I don't know if it was "OK for a crappy ac," "OK considering a "real Ferrari Owner" wouldn't care, or if it was really OK and cooled the car quite well.

So my intent is to put it back per oem and see how well it really works. I realize that duracool is not original and that's why I'm considering getting the license to buy R12 but according to Duracool, it's as efficient as R12, so it SHOULD provide equal cooling. Of course, that's their claim and they are trying to sell Duracool!

 

I bought a 328gts in January 1992 and it had 7k miles, I was the 2nd owner. The AC worked well enough in the Florida heat and even in bumper to bumper traffic. It was when someone recharged it with the new regular stuff that it went to crap. Later it was recharged with the old stuff but it never worked near decent again.

 

Not to be an alarmist but anyone considering using a Sanden compressor please note:

1) Sanden compressor pulleys are designed for a 40° V-belt
2) Ferrari used a 60° V-belt
3) using a 60° V-belt on the Sanden could cause a catastrophic failure of the V-belt
4) simply using a 40° V-belt won't work since the crakshaft pulley is also designed for a 60° V-belt
5) worst case scenario is the broken V-belt ends up damaging the camshaft timing belt(s)

YOU KNOW THE REST OF THE STORY!

 

"I bought a 328gts in January 1992 and it had 7k miles, I was the 2nd owner. The AC worked well enough in the Florida heat and even in bumper to bumper traffic. It was when someone recharged it with the new regular stuff that it went to crap. Later it was recharged with the old stuff but it never worked near decent again."

That's really good info! It would seem to me that the problem could have been that when they switched it to 134 ("new stuff") they may have simply just put 134 in without the necessary associated work to ensure no cross contamination from the different oils. Then when going back to Freon (R12), the "damage" had been done to the exp valve so the 12 couldn't work properly either.

Everything I have read indicates that if you put 134 in a 12 system without purging/changing compressor oil, replacing the exp valve, dryer etc, at some point the exp valve will not work properly regardless of what refrigerant is used afterward. Many "conversions" were advertised/sold as that all that was needed was to drain the R12, change the service valves on the compressor, vacuum the system down, and add R134. But years of "history" has proven that doesn't work. It seems that to ensure a properly functioning system when switching from either to the other, the exp valve and dryer has to be changed as well as the refrigerant oil in the compressor and the system flushed.

 

Mike,

My hat's off to you and your effort to edjukate yourself for your own ac stuff. I have done some of the same. Yanked out entire systems/components and re attached.

Dont fuss about necessarily getting it back to "original" refrigerant. Not worth the worry. I agree with you on using propane (thats what Duracool mostly is). Yeah, R12 is cool, but kinda a headache. you gotta evac totally. also with R134a. Propane- no need to evac.

Propane is soooooo easy. Just dont smoke.....LOL

One thing: size of condenser is key. And if you are still limited with the space in a 308, well, dump the old R12 condenser, and replace with a similar size HIGH FLO one. And you DO have to change out the expansion valve with a major redo.

Anyway, good luck.

 

Many a/c problems are a result of non use during the cooler months. I just leave the a/c on very low in the winter to keep it blowing cold.

 

Another good point. this is sooooo undervalued- we should run the car ac at least once a week, preferably 2X a week, to circulate the oil to keep the seals lubed preventing freon from oozing out. Yeah, even in cold up north weather! Good one, SD!