0202 A – Bought on Ebay - Long Lost Even-Numbered Comp Ferrari Found

Anyone know the s/n of the 250 California in the R&T ad? Thanks

-Jarrett

 

I do like it! I didn't know that 3167 had left California.

Thanks

T308
(GTEs are hijackin' this wonderful thread!)

 

Thats really cool

I would think if the car was worth $500,000-$1,500,000 as it sits now the previous owner would file a lawsuit.

 

There's no way he'd win so what's the point? You don't think there's sufficient consideration ($ wise)? It's not like he paid $1 for it.

 

I wouldn't say he couldn't win, its happened with real estate land deals that have sold significantly under market such as when the buyer was privy to inside information, and other cases such as water rights or mineral claims thought to be worth little when its just the opposite.

 

I would be great to have the missing engine!!!!!!! One could make Tom S. beg for the one part he does not have before selling it to him for some serious cash!

 

That's what I was thinking. I have NO idea why lawsuit-talk must be brought into this thread.

Cheers on the find and all the best with the resto.

Vasco

 

Hmmm, I don’t know, but in litigious California?
I’m very much into early American weaponry and know of more than one occasion where a professional purchased items from private parties for the asking price, and when the private parties learned the true value, sued, and won.
The courts concluding that the professional had known the true value, and had taken unfair advantage of the seller by not apprising him of this value, and was required to either pay up, or return the items.
On the other hand, those were complete and fine condition items, where this is just a frame and a few original components. What, maybe 10 percent of the original car?
What really amazes me is that perhaps someone will pay 95 percent of value of a complete original car, when this one will be nothing more than a 90 percent recreation.
With early American furniture or weapons, a recreation using only a chest frame or the lock mechanism from a gun, no matter how finely and precisely done, will never be worth more than a small percentage of an original.
Ferrari’s are different, but assuming I had a large enough checkbook, I certainly wouldn’t open it that wide for a 90 percent recreated car.
Just my humble two bit opinion.
John

 

A very interesting find no doubt! The frame WITH the original serial number is the key to enlightenment. But what now? The Devin body has probably been on the car for 40 years or more. But should it be restored back to a period Devin racer? Probably not. The rarity of the original demands a restoration back to a Ferrari. But how does that happen? A complete reproduction body made by the back alley artisans of Modena? Would the car then be hailed as an "original" Ferrari? As always, the market would make the ultimate approval.

But why couldn't I have had that kind of luck with my 1966 Fiberfab Caribee kit car? It too is a rare bird, but the previous owner dropped the fiberglass body on an MGA frame. Argggghhhhh. Why couldn't he have butchered up a vintage Ferrari to make me happy over 40 years later. "I could have been a contender!"

 

I find this whole "Ferrari" version of vintage/original cars funny if not rediculous. IMO I say it even delves into the realm of BS!

Philosophically at what point do you have an original car??? Does one tire from serial #000X equal a real car...?? Does a bent frame section found in the weeds from #000X that friday practiced at Brands Hatch in 69 equal a real car...?? If I buy a genuine 288 GTO brake pad off E-bay and convert a 308 GTB do I have a genuine 288??? How does some rusted out frame from #0202A with a Ford rear end equal a real car...?? Obviously I'm being sarcastic, but seriously where do people draw the line?

At this point all anyone has of #0202A is a frame. Perhaps the engine can be sourced, but the body, the interior, switches, wiring, glasss, gearbox... 90% of the car will have to "reprouduced". Yet somehow it's going to end up being an original car because the "factory" can bulid a replacment engine, body, interior or whatever you need and all of a sudden it will be a 95% original car...In my world that doesn't add up.

All I can say, is that I'll never have the $ to be in this realm of Ferrari ownership and if this is the kind of BS that goes on at that level I'm glad I'm not there and never will be.

IMO, this chassis, even if the original engine can be found will never be anything more than a 50% recreation of an original car...of course I don't have the $1.5M to buy it when it's done, so my opinion doesn't really matter....

 

I hear you Meister. And agree with much of what you said. In the case of this latest barn find, at least the serial number stampings ARE INTACT and in most states, this is the legal identity of the car. Once a Ferrari, always a Ferrari, as long as the serial number stampings on the frame can be confirmed. Just like a rare coin, the numbers are what matters. Unfortunately when it comes to rare cars, the frame and the numbers are often ALL that is really left of the carcass!

Has anybody ever seen a vintage photo of a Ferrari in the winner's circle, surrounded by beautiful girls handing a trophy to a driver sitting on top of a BARE frame? Hardly. A BARE frame didn't qualify as a car back then and it really doesn't now either.

Would the skeleton of a race car driver actually qualify AS a race car driver???????

 

so what would you do with the chassis??????? Scrap it for bulk steel????????

This is the remnants of one of the four 340s that Ferrari( a four year old company) entered in the 1952 24 Le Mans race. The Juggernaut Mercedes team came and rocked every ones world that year but otherwise Ferrari had a huge presence. The early fifties was the golden years for sports cars and that's where we get all our great sports cars from today.

Racecars then are were used the same as racecars are today, as tools to get a job done. Cars were wrecked and bodies/parts replaced as needed to get to the next race. If someone in 1953 put a new body on 0202A to get out to next race no one would have a problem with that today but heaven forbid someone makes one today for a car that's body is missing.

It is important that this car has been found and will be brought back to it's former glory. Everyone get's so caught up in the dollar figures that go along with these cars, who cares, if someone wants something let them pay what they feel it's worth. I doubt a Beanie Baby is really worth 500 bucks either.

I like most people on here love Ferrari, always have and always will. The more of these beautiful creatures on the road the better.

just my 2 cents

Zac

 

When this chassis was produced Ferrari didn’t make the bodywork themselves just the rolling chassis, the bodywork was seen as something to protect the mechanicals and the driver from the elements, whilst the Chassis and running gear were the parts made by Ferrari

Given the mechanicals are allegedly going to be remanufactured by Ferrari (in period cars had different engines installed by the factory so no difference there) when it goes to be bodied it will no doubt leave the gates in Maranello in just the same uncompleted condition as it did when it was first made 50+ years ago

 

Ferrari built the frames(had them built) and running gear, engine and used to test them as bare chassis. There is a book that shows an early Ferrari being driven sans body, clothes to be added later.

 

I DONT THINK THIS IS IN DISPUTE AT ALL BUT AS MARCEL HAS SAID AND AS THE COURTS HAVE FOUND IT IS THE CHASSIS THAT IS AT THE HEART OF THIS ISSUE.

WHY PEOPLE CANT ACCEPT THIS IS BEYOND ME. WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING AS SIMPLE AS GEORGE WASHINGTONS AXE THAT ONLY HAS TWO COMPONENTS.

CARS ARE COMPLEX WITH MANY COMPONENETS BUT IF THE CHASSIS HISTORY IS VERIFIABLE AND CONTINUOUS THEN YOU HAVE THE MAKING OF A CAR.

LOOK AT THE CASE OF "OLD MOTHER GUN' A FAMOUS BENTLEY FOR EXAMPLE:

PEOPLE ARE CONFUSING THIS ISSUE WITH "ORIGINALITY" WHICH IN AN IDEAL WORLD MEANS HOW A CAR WAS CONFIGURED AS IT LEFT THE WORKS..

THIS IS A MATTER OF DEGREE IN MY OPINION AND PARTICULARLY IN THE OLD RACE CAR WORLD WHERE THOSE CARS ARE PROBABLY NOT "ORIGINAL" IN THE STRICTEST SENSE BY THE TIME OF THEIR SECOND RACE

 

0202A is a great find indeed but Missini, you have got the story all wrong, talking of another car which is already around.

 

I have no intentions of starting a flame war over this topic or about this interesting find.

I hope that the "car" will be re-made, re-built, re-created (insert your own definition) and then used, shown, raced whatever.

All I'm saying is that on a philosophical level I have a hard time when people resurect not just a Ferrari, but any car from a few components and then call it an original.

As long as a car (and it's history) is represented correctly: built from an original frame, around an original engine, in an original shell, etc I don't have a problem with it or what someone pays for it.

 

This is interesting to me - Marcel states that "legally" only the chassis showing chassis number and title are required. But there is also so much talk about "matching numbers" in other automotive arenas. I know Tom S. restored another car of similar vintage (0331??) with engine from 0313, and yet 0313 is still out there somewhere (Palo Alto still???) without it's original engine. But both cars are probably considered "original".

In the Jaguar world, there are no fewer than three (IIRC) C-Types which lay claim to the s/n "01C". I think one's got the engine, one's got the chassis, and one's got the s/n plate. Or something like that - it's a never-ending debate.

These discussions are fascinating.....

As a trivial aside, I have saved a page from a computer catalog (MacWorld???) from about 10 or 12 years ago. Pictured on one of the computer screens in this catalog is a Vignale-bodied Ferrari coupe - exactly like 0313EU!

 

Please elaborate! What is "wrong" with Marcel's story?
Sincerely, curious Horsefly.

 

before the ebay auction disappears, here is what the text of the auction read:



1958 Devin

You are bidding on a 1958 Devin. This car is possibly a proto type of the Devin SS. I have been told this may be one of the proto type cars that Bill Devin hand made with right hand drive before he came up with the SS chassis that he had made by Devonshire Engineering Company of Belfast, Northern Ireland.



The Devin Company only made about 2500 fiberglass body's during the short existence of the company, many of these were lost to racing accidents. Bill Devin made a few complete race cars and sold them as the Devin SS. This Devin is the body style of the Devin SS and the chassis has many characteristics the SS chassis.



I don't have much history on the car other than the previous owners.




This is the perfect project car for the vintage road race enthusiast if you want a fun, fast car to run with the Big Boys, with a potential value of over $250,000.00



Below is a list of the known spec’s and list of parts I have.




Utah certificate of title, 7/15/1963

Listed on title as 1958 Devin – Roadster

Serial Number U 17997

Last owner, Jerry Klous, Lake Forest, IL.

Previous owner, John Douglas, Salt Lake City, UT.

Previously registered in Utah, owner unknown

Spin off wire wheels

Aluminum ribbed drum brakes

Right hand drive

Wood trimmed steering wheel

All suspension parts are intact

Dash board with most of the Stewart Warner gauges

Working doors

Hood and deck lid with mounting pins

Aluminum interior with aluminum floor pans

Borg Warner 4-speed trans with drive shaft

I do not have the motor, but it had a 283 c.i. Chevy # F1116CD with a four-barrel in the car originally



This is a project car that is sold as is and shown so please look at the pictures closely to determine the condition and completeness of this Devin.



Buyer is responsible for local pick up or making arrangements to ship car to there location.



If you have any questions I will do my best to answer them. Feel free to email me at [email protected]






Thanks for looking and good luck in the auctions.






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On Jun-15-06 at 14:09:14 PDT, seller added the following information:

Additional notes.

The wind shield is plexiglass and is cracked on the drivers (right) side. you will have to have a new one made but the old one is still good to have a form made.

Also, Since the start of the auction I have been told this is not a SS proto type. It is a hand built special.

Thanks for looking and good luck.

 

So the title says nothing about "Ferrari", nor does the serial number. Hmmmm.
So the title is pretty much worthless paper since it does nothing to describe the actual artifact, UNLESS that serial number refers to a Devin serial number. I know that my Fiberfab Caribee kit car supposedly has a serial number SOMEWHERE on the fiberglass body, but I've never looked for it. The title is for a 1959 MGA which is what the frame and serial number tag says.
I'm sure that Tom got a good bill of sale for the car. But too bad the existing title says nothing about Ferrari. It will take a bit of back tracking to find out where and when the "metamorphisis" from Ferrari to Devin occured.