0302 found in Venezuela

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by elmotorizado, Dec 16, 2009.

  1. elmotorizado

    elmotorizado Formula Junior

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    #1 elmotorizado, Dec 16, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    This car was entered by TransOliver (transformacion Oliver, modified by Oliver) and raced by Fayen and Sergio Gonzalez ( who raced a Ferrari and a Maserati in the same race) and had a Mercedes 300 SL engine, the second photo is in a race in Ciudad Ojeda 1960 with a Chevrolet 283 engine.
    Lets see what else we find about this car.
    branko
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  2. Aardy

    Aardy F1 Rookie
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    The problem in claiming these pics show 0302TF is that both show the same car in 1957 and 1960.
    And you have a pic showing 0302TF in 1959 with a different Scaglietti body.
    How 0302TF coud have received a new body in 1957, then fitted back in 1959 with the older Scaglietti body and then, back again with the new Scaglietti body in 1960 ??
    Something is wrong there...
     
  3. Marcel Massini

    Marcel Massini F1 World Champ
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    The Lino Fayen car with the MB 300 SL engine is 0562 MD (GP Venezuela 3 November 1957, race #32). This is the car in which Alberto Ascari was killed at Monza 26 May 1955. Factory rebuilt it, re-engined it with a type 111 Series II Mondial 2-liter engine with internal engine #15. Then sold thru Carlos Kauffmann to Joao Rezende Dos Santos.

    Marcel Massini
     
  4. Aardy

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    #4 Aardy, Dec 16, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Marcel, in this case, what is the s/n of this yellow Scaglietti spyder ??
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  5. elmotorizado

    elmotorizado Formula Junior

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    Cyril I didnt post the picture of 1959 in Bogota, that is another lead that is my friend´s Salgatti investigation, according to what I have they are 2 different cars.
    branko
     
  6. elmotorizado

    elmotorizado Formula Junior

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    #6 elmotorizado, Dec 16, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Marcel 0562 had a different story I have pictures in the 70s before it was sent to Europe, and the car # 32 caught fire in mid 60s and had a body made in the country.
    branko
    0562 while called el Chevrolari
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  8. tongascrew

    tongascrew F1 Rookie

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    Thanks much to everyone. Keep the good stuff comming. just one man's opinion tongascrew
     
  9. Aardy

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    Marcel,

    how do you explain the yellow Scaglietti spyder above had large side vents, like Ascari's and Dos Santos's spyder ??

    I would say this yellow Scaglietti spyder IS 0562 and so, the Ferrari-Mercedes with "standard" side vents is rather 0534...
     
  10. elmotorizado

    elmotorizado Formula Junior

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    I agree about the yellow car, and not on 0534, 0534 is now in Italy and the Ferrari Mercedes remained in Venezuela and is still in the country with a body made localy.
    branko
     
  11. Aardy

    Aardy F1 Rookie
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    Do you mean you still think the Ferrari Mercedes is 0302TF ??

    How can it be 0302TF as you have pics showing the Ferrari Mercedes with the same body in 1957 and in 1960 and another pic showing 0302TF in 1959 with a completely different body ?? I really don't understand...
     
  12. elmotorizado

    elmotorizado Formula Junior

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    I only say the following, hope the language barrier doesnt complicate matters.
    The pictures I posted in post #1 are the only ones I beleive are of 0302, I will try to explain why, I meet with a lot people and made a lot of questions.
    1) in 1957 GP the car was entered by Trans Oliver.
    2) do we agree that both photos show the same car so far?
    3) in 1960 at Ojeda the writing on the front fender is (PRECISION C.A) a large machine shop of the Oliver Brothers, Tomas and the late Jose, that was responsable for the instalation of the 300SL engine, I was told that by the Godson´s father of Lino Fayen and partner
    Do you see the link?
    4)The car caught fire in the mid 60s and was sold to the actual owner who made a body for the car, some original components were used, very few.
    When I found about this car I called the owner and asked if he could read the serial, when I called next he said N 0302 TF, no idea what the N means.
    more will follow when I get some pictures, the only one I have so far is posted in my forum, saving space when needed here.
    branko
    does it make sense???
     
  13. Aardy

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    Branko,

    yes, I agree your first two pictures are the same car, first one in 1957, the second one in 1960.
    Of course, I also agree there is a strong connection between Oliver and the "Trans Oliver" Ferrari Mercedes and I understand you could think 0302TF was the Ferrari Mercedes as the owner of 0302TF bought his car from Oliver.

    But, as you know, 0302TF had an early Scaglietti spyder body (made in late 1953) when arriving in Venezuela in 1955. And you have a pic showing the same car with the same body in Bogota in 1959. Do you see where is the problem ??

    So, two possibilities :

    - the Bogota's pic is not from 1959 year but earlier : in this case, 0302TF must have been rebodied with a new Scaglietti body (the one on your pics above) in late 1955 or later. But did 0302TF really went back to Italy to be rebodied by Scaglietti and then came back again to Venezuela ?? I personnaly doubt of this theory...

    - the Ferrari-Mercedes is another Scaglietti spyder and it's a pure coincidence that the owner of 0302TF bought his car from Oliver, the guy of the Ferrari Mercedes.
    My opinion is the Ferrari Mercedes is 0534 or another s/n but certainly not 0562...
     
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  15. elmotorizado

    elmotorizado Formula Junior

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    Not easy, I agree it is not 0562, but I dont think it is 0534 either, I have spoken with OLavarria who bought the car from Zilio, and he almost gave away the car to Varona because of the difficult to find and expensive parts and not beeing competitive anymore.
    branko
     
  16. elmotorizado

    elmotorizado Formula Junior

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    #14 elmotorizado, Dec 18, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  17. 246tasman

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    Where is the pic of 1959?
     
  18. 246tasman

    246tasman Formula 3
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    Can you explain what you know (& how) of the connection between this car and the car in post #1 (if I have understood correctly)

    Great thread but I'm rather confused...
     
  19. elmotorizado

    elmotorizado Formula Junior

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    Tasman, that picture of 1959 desnt have to do with my investigation, I explained the best I could on post # 11 , some people beleive there is a second car in Oliver hands, my opinion is that it was only one car and that is 0302, lets see what other people bring and what else I find, I have at least one more meeting with a person that lived the facts.
    branko
    you can see the picture of 1959 here, JSalgatti´s post.
    http://server4.foros.net/viewtopic.php?t=339&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&mforum=muchasrpms
     
  20. 246tasman

    246tasman Formula 3
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    Branko
    Thanks for the link to your other site. My Spanish isn't brilliant but I could more or less follow it.
    What I still don't understand is how you connect the photos of the car 'after the 2nd fire' with the car in the first post. Can you explain?
    Another mystery is that the first photo of the JSalgatti post seems to have a twin aperture nose (looks like a Chiti nose!) but looks normal in the second MM photo. Has the (first) photo been altered??
    Will
     
  21. elmotorizado

    elmotorizado Formula Junior

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    Very easy, the actual owner bought the car from Jose Oliver and knows the car from before the second fire, about JSalgatti´s photos, the best way would be to ask him if he gets involved in this forum, or you can ask him in the other forum in english, if you do I will translate under your message or within your message.
    branko
     
  22. 246tasman

    246tasman Formula 3
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    #20 246tasman, Dec 20, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2009
    Thanks Branko.
    It seems pretty certain then that it is the same car. Do you expect to be able to post details of what parts still remain and what are the owner's plans?
    The original Vignale body on 0302 was a very unusual & beautiful design. What an opportunity to reproduce it! The body on 039S which is said to be built from the remains of the 0302TF body doesn't look so special to me, although still vey good.
    Will
     
  23. elmotorizado

    elmotorizado Formula Junior

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    You are welcome Tasman, I am waiting on the pictures of the serial numbers and the car in its actual condition, about the owners plans, he told me he is saving it to play with it when he retires.
    I didnt know the details of 039S til now, is there more information and photos?
    I will translate your last post for the other forum.
    branko
     
  24. 246tasman

    246tasman Formula 3
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    #22 246tasman, Dec 20, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2009
    Let's hope he retires soon! I look forward to further photos with much interest.
    For 039S photos & info you can start with Massini's 'Ferrari by Vignale' book, and there's a post resto photo on barchetta.
    Thanks for the translation service!
    Will

    PS I can see now that the apparent twin nostril nose I referred to earler is a reflection/trick of the light
     
  25. elmotorizado

    elmotorizado Formula Junior

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    #23 elmotorizado, Dec 21, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
    Here is another view of the Ferrari Mercedes following a Maserati 200s, but there is a peculiar fact, the driver of the Maserati, Sergio Gonzalez also co drove the Ferrari Mercedes with Fayen, he was getting off one car and getting in in the second.
    Any of the historians have the tales of that race would be interesting, I have an interview with Gonzalez of a couple of years ago in a venezuelan magazine.
    branko
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  26. Wolf

    Wolf Formula Junior

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    The Maserati is one of my former cars, #2401, now in the USA. Great picture!
    #2401 was part of the Scuderia Madudina, maybe the Ferrari too, that being the reason for the driver´s change.

    Regards

    Wolfi
     
  27. Wolf

    Wolf Formula Junior

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    Owner was at the time btw Felipe Guitierrez.

    Regards

    Wolfi
     

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