0854 Back to Original Coupe

Discussion in 'Vintage (thru 365 GTC4)' started by Napolis, Jun 27, 2006.

  1. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,122
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    Originally Posted by 335s in the 250P Thread

    ALL started as "legit", nee, 250P cars. ALL got different bodies-not only in the first year- but distinctly different noses in the following year(s) as "275Ps"(210 engines),
    and different again as the final cars were stuffed with 163 and 209(?) blocks as most cars were run as "330Ps" ...along side the later framed: 0818, 0820, 0822 ...everyone gets it I think...those were the NEE 330P chassis-but, ALL chassiss ran with 4-litre mills, at some point, somewhere...
    There are some stylistic differences, but it is all minor, mostly, cosmetic stuff...

    Driving wise: Surtees himself opined to us that the cars were a tad underpowered as 250s,
    a bit of an over weighted/overpowered and ill mannered pig, as 4 litres,
    but, "just right" as 3.3 litres...best balanced-a "winner here, boys"

    In truth, and the records will bear me out, these cars-in all iterations of essentially the same car-won nearly everything, for 2-3 years. Only the full on FORD, and later PORSCHE factory ALL OUT efforts tilted the field away from the P car class of Ferrari comp cars.

    0810 started out with the clutch IN the bell housing, a-l-a LM, but went to the rear of the box in final trim...We have pics of this, as do most all of you..it also ran as a 330 car at...sebring(??)in 1964/65{my memory is awful on this stuff, and my apologies at being to lazy to look it up, its not that critical, as it an "essentially anecdotal" sort of a reference}.

    The FIRST P cars{IMHO only}-the DINO SPs-the Chiti shark nose cars, still had, as did LMs, riveted fuel tanks...
    The "12 cylinder P-cars"-these class of cars-were the first to have WELDED seams in their Ji-mon-gous fuel tanks-which ran on each rocker panel, and, had fuel running inside the frame tubes in places as well..geez, welding integrity in the frame joints and seams is sort-a-gettin' seriously important here, huh?
    The fuel filler necks were tubes which ran from the Monza style caps, down 4 inch vertical downpipes-over 2 feet in length-to the tanks...
    Re-fueling mishaps caused fires, improperly/just plain not 100% seated caps were vapour plumes awaiting an ignition source...enormous flash of flame, sheet alloy melts, rubber hoses, perhaps tyres, plastic side curtains and windscreen, then no more combustables..
    'cept the Mag castings...if they go, its a 45 minute pyre..
    I have seen original tanks, they are downright, horrifyingly, scary...countless fatigue fractures, dents, chafe fatigues, all "repaired"..sort of, back in period....No FAA airworhtiness certificate here! Time for NEW.

    0812 was running away with it at LeMans in 1963 as a Team car, when it caught fire at the-you guessed it-the front of a fuel tank, which burned brightly-and quickly-until extinguished. Pictures are available here, on this site, elsewhere...after the factory rebuilt the car, it was a SEFAC 1st OA car at: ADAC 1000, AND, Sebring(this car was GOOD at Sebring-3 years, 3 PODIUMS!)...look at the pics and consider THAT fact...
    Then compare it to the pics of the St. Jovite fire of 0814(essentially the same type of burn-from actual witnessess AND participants), the burns are so similar, it is easy to see why they are so frequently confused.
    If memeory serves ME correctly, when questioned on the subjects, Dick Fritz opined that to the best of HIS memory of the incident, it was that: "it looked worse than it seemed, and that we probably "just fixed the car," because after all the metal of body work being so thin after it burns/melts AWAY, just frame and big stuff is left that does not burn so easily, it just wasn't THAT bad...lots of dirt on the car though."
    Incredibly cavalier-in todays mindset-but through the prism of several decades of time, where no rational person would project valuations being what they are today, causes one to realize that "just an old racing car" was all it was, and we treated them as such, until they were completely, and thoroughly, used up...and we ALL "hoped some one asleep at the switch" would actually give some money for this "junk."
    I digress..
    These cars are lighter, sparser versions of an LM-in lay terms-and a fire looks bad, but the body is really all there is-aside from fuel and rubber..they ALL got rebuilt, and run again, for years, and years. Just to be clear here-having had an LM next to a P-car-they ARE similar, BUT an LM IS NOT a 250P with a roof. It is beyond the tanks, the rear banana lower body work of the clam, interior, etc. P frame is lighter guage and there is "LESS of it"-PERIOD. They are CLOSE relatives-NO QUESTION there, but, they are NOT, "roadster, hot rodded LMs. These lighter guage factors leads to countless fatigue cracks, and areas for future potential weldment/joint integrityfailures, these cars were ALL prone to burns...
    The Prototipo LM-the 1 and ONLY 250LM-is famous for a re-fueling pit fire at a BIG FIA race-LM or Sebring, or, Daytona??? While a NART car? Same old saga-LOOKS AWFUL, racing again-SOON...NART was one of-was the most successful concessionaires.
    0814 took over the lead and was the LM winner that year...
    0810 was second, as I recall...
    0816 was the winner the following year.
    NONE has the original body-NONE.
    Only 1(I'm told) has the complete, total original frame, 1 has almost none-but SO WHAT!!! {ALL scurrulous rumors and unsubstantiated as fact, by this poster}
    These are NOT road cars, or, 50s "gentlman" boy racer cars which you can drive home after the race/event!!!..a-la-TdF, SWB, TRC, Mondials, MMs, Exports, HOT Cal Spyders{lets be real here...forget TRs-those are RACING cars, as are GTOs, ALL Dinos and SPs are F1 driver required cars as well...those are NOT anything but WORKS cars needing works pilots}
    These were all driven by the F1 drivers, as WORKS cars, for ALL the marbles , every time out.
    Original motors, gearboxes, and bodies, PUHLEEEZ...the facotry did not care of such things-WHY would they? Only scrutineers at the events care of such things...
    I have been told by men who raced these models-for real-suspect that: of all P cars made, perhaps 60+% do NOT have the original frames that they had on the day they left the Factory on the transporters.
    Personally, I have no idea as to the veracity of this opinion, but it sems realistic to me based on actual purpose and actual use of these cars and by the men who drove them...

    The ultimate crazy quip is the: "was such and such correct?-in a picture of the "other one" at the "other race" it looks different...'
    What was correct, was what won the race, and nothing else mattered-period.

    These cars ARE different than the Road and Sports/GT cars, AND, MUST be viewed accordingly, as a different creature, that lived more savage lives, in a more savage world, Only to survive, at all, to be vintage raced-in any capacity-is a near miracle.
    The degree of MECHANICAL restoration required, in part due to past lives-and incidents-combined with the car's inherent capabilities-and current monetary valuations-{only 2 or 3 cars sold in 25-30 years? ALL rumors-only...their locations, and ownership, are well documented due to rarity...yes?}.
    Thus, making it a track safe ride, is an enormously costly venture...and enormously TIME consuming, as well...
    But what a show it would be at Laguna in August.....
    Is 0810 coming?
    I assume with all of the posts, it must be???
    0816-Pierre has not had it out of France in YEARS...
    0812 and 0814 are still with CoCo(yes?)in Italy??
    0820 Pierre sold(Oregon???), and the other ,
    the ex-Ecclstone car is In Pacific NW as well?, but never been seen since they got that brace of cars in late 90s..
    Fabrizio's(RIP) ex-Prothroe, long tailed car, got "dog tags", but there is, apparently, considerable consternation from the granstands on this topic...{how do you certify a car which was "written off" by the factory... in a fatality related testing crash?"}
    I digress yet again...All one needs at that juncture is one of the period correct transport trucks!

    These cars-P cars-are my personal faves{could ya tell?)for the 40 years I've been doing this stuff. I've been up close and personal, to ALL 4, at 1 time or another-I was offered to buy each of the 4 of them, at 1 time, or another, in last 35-40 years{0810, as it is pictured above in 1973, was the first-and by far the cheapest-I didn't do it because I could buy an LM for 10K, so the P was MUCH too expensive, and at the time, Don Fong seemed...well...I was unwilling to scam my trustees for money I couln't afford to lose to THAT guy...for one of those "italian red things"}

    Consequently, I have come to know these rather well, and not at all from the "Historian" perspective-but that of a grease under the nails/practitioner perspective.
    Frankly, better so with each passing day. As we age, true principle lust and interest lies- for me-solely in the area of what makes them tick, how they are made and assembled(and why)as nearly all spares are fabricated, what corners were "designed in" as areas to: "wiggle and cheat", based on application and acceptable loss margins...design in the failure/weak point to control the failures and confine costs such that-as the CFOs call "cost certainty"..Enzo was, if anything, a man who kept his eye on the bottom line-always...I have asked SantaClauz for blueprints this Christmas, if I'm a good boy...who knows?? I spend my vacations trying to strip mine the remaining/surviving men's memories of technical experiences and unexpected, real world pratfall areas, and, for ANY spare parts/boxes in the attics or garages.
    Men who were active when these were campaigned, there are precious few who remain-especially here in USA.

    How they handled the cars in situ, in season, in era, is more valuable than ANY notes, or pictures, or "stories", or other non-"we were there" scenarios. Real men, with REAL experience racing-NOT stories, NOT Vintage racing, NOT SCCA 7 years later...JUST, old guys, that mostly say: "We did it this way because": that was what worked at Daytona, N'Ring, Spa, LeMans, the Targa, etc. [For example:The noses were changed as the sesons evolved, because they didn't "work" in original release iteration-primarily, heat dissipation was the problem-not enough was understood, yet, about the aerodynamics UNDER the car, around it, in front of it, behind it...The curvy, early looks, are 'pretty"(old way), but the "slab-ier" siding flows better-don't know why, but it WORKS BETTER for the driver, and, ITS FASTER, and IT HANDLES with less effort.]

    This was an exciting, seat of the pants, ERA. Form and beauty still ruled over function-initially. Stone cold results, cruel as they may be, ruled the roost...as it should based on the razor thin margins of differences then existant in that racing. Thus, it was also the END of this ERA-things were now changing-almost MONTHLY, not yearly...
    Did I mention the increases-monthly-of costs, as well...
    The money, one's results, are even more important, and affect the MONEY supply from sponsorhip accounts...The space age/space race has affected, it seems, ALL aspects of manufacturing technologies...worldwide.
    The last artist's rendering/design for a P-car was the 330P/4-it utilised the burgeoning-yet ubiquitous-aerotunnel(wind tunnel)DURING the design process...but not yet were the bodies being designed by engineers FIRST, with a thought to how it looked as an afterthought. Hell, beauty is still a requisite and paramount consideration even today for Ferrari-and Italian culture as a whole-as oppossed to the computer generated models emenating from all of the design "houses" in Germany
    In many ways, Ferrari is to be admired for the accomplishments of the P4 in this aspect of form over function, while being a machine, as opposed to the FORD, all out, win whatever, however, at no expense, rather a soul-less victory in the end...but wait, Ferrari won the Championship in 1967 ???
    REMEMBER: For a perspective/gut check: a NART, privateer LM, won the 24 hours of LeMans in 1965, YOU CAN'T WIN, IF YOU CAN'T FINISH! Despite this notion, what is remarkable is also the notion that: some components are designeed and manufactured with a clear operational envelope/life span measured in hours before mean time failure!
    Others are, clearly, in a hundred hours, others yet, in hundreds of hours-which is, effectively speaking here, years.
    ALL things are finite, and are expected to be D&I, R&R, on a schedule..."SMOH" so to speak, for those aircraft guys out there...and as such, with proper attention to fuel system issues, the integrity of major frame stress load areas, these P cars-the beginning of the final wave of the golden age of racing(culminating in the greatest sports car in history)which ended as the decade itself ended-alomg with Ferrari and racing as we all know, love, cherish, and worship so dearly-could and should be able to last forever.
    I shall endeavour, to my last breath in a shop environment, to do just that-as I've managed to keep it/them still ensconced in my field of view...
    Someday, we'll se you at the track.
    Whereever you 250/275P-Cars are...
    "Let's go racing, and see which car is fastest!!??"
     
  2. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,122
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    #677 Napolis, Mar 4, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 7, 2017
  3. GIOTTO

    GIOTTO Formula 3
    Consultant

    Dec 30, 2006
    2,356
    FRANCE
    Fantastic!
     
  4. krasnavian

    krasnavian Formula 3

    Dec 24, 2003
    2,124
    Los Angeles/Paris
    +1!
     
  5. VIZSLA

    VIZSLA Four Time F1 World Champ
    Rossa Subscribed Owner

    Jan 11, 2008
    41,120
    Sarasota
    Full Name:
    David
    Suddenly March in NY doesn't look so bad.
     
  6. Tired of seeing this ad? Upgrade now
  7. Peloton25

    Peloton25 F1 Veteran
    Silver Subscribed

    Jan 24, 2004
    7,514
    California, USA
    Full Name:
    Erik
    Obviously you take the term 'spring cleaning' to a whole other level. :)

    >8^)
    ER
     
  8. Boudewijn

    Boudewijn Moderator
    Moderator

    May 15, 2003
    3,956
    The Netherlands
    Full Name:
    Boudewijn Berkhoff
    Superb photos Jim!
     
  9. Enzo Anselmo Ferrari

    Enzo Anselmo Ferrari Formula Junior

    Apr 4, 2009
    493
    France
    So beautiful, it's a Masterpiece, still all my congratulations! :)
     
  10. Zegna

    Zegna Formula Junior

    Apr 14, 2006
    422
    North America
    Full Name:
    Jesse
    #685 Zegna, Mar 7, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2010
    Looks like a lovely Saturday.

    By the way, the two red things on the bottom left corner in the 10th picture are not horns, correct? Or are they?
     
  11. jj2728

    jj2728 Karting

    Jan 19, 2004
    192
    Ontario
    That last shot is my all time favorite on this and the 0846 thread. It really shows the passion and commitment that Jim has for these cars. Thanks for sharing....bravissimo.
     
  12. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,122
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    Hi

    Yes they are horns. Prototypes were required to seat two, have full raod gear and luggage boxes.
     
  13. Tired of seeing this ad? Upgrade now
  14. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

    Jun 7, 2007
    4,264
    Cape Town, South Afr
    Full Name:
    Jack Verschuur
    That's the best wall-art I have seen in a long time!
     
  15. thecarreaper

    thecarreaper F1 World Champ
    Silver Subscribed

    Sep 30, 2003
    14,020
    southeast
    Full Name:
    name
    amazing. simply, utterly, amazing.
     
  16. spike308

    spike308 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 8, 2003
    3,722
    Austin TX!
    Full Name:
    Mike Z
    Hey Jim -

    is that your silver 308 on the lift?
     
  17. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,122
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    No the Paint shop isn't ours. We use Julio Grosso in Danbury for all our paint work.

    He painted 0846 Spyder Version.
     
  18. PSk

    PSk F1 World Champ

    Nov 20, 2002
    17,673
    Tauranga, NZ
    Full Name:
    Pete
    +2

    Pete
     
  19. schwaggen

    schwaggen Karting

    Apr 22, 2006
    98
    Miami FL
    Wow..the parts of my model Ferrari looked like this when they came out of the box, too...but mine was smaller, I think. And probably easier to put together.
     
  20. spike308

    spike308 F1 Rookie
    Silver Subscribed

    Nov 8, 2003
    3,722
    Austin TX!
    Full Name:
    Mike Z
    I thought you'd have the good sense to have a 308! :)
     
  21. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,122
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    I do have a 208 GTB Turbo and had a 308 GTBi which I liked very much driving her 85K miles in the rain, sleet, and snow.
     
  22. Ferraripilot

    Ferraripilot F1 World Champ
    Project Master Owner

    May 10, 2006
    15,795
    Atlanta
    Full Name:
    It's man
    Has it yet been declared that you have spent more miles in a Ferrari than any other person on the planet? If not, I dare someone to step forward. My gosh, it sounds like you have 500k miles racked up in them
     
  23. f308jack

    f308jack F1 Rookie

    Jun 7, 2007
    4,264
    Cape Town, South Afr
    Full Name:
    Jack Verschuur
    Nice observation, but your estimate may prove to be a little low. And if the frame hadn't broken, Jim'd probably still be tooling around in his Testarossa, with the odo reading 500.000!
     
  24. Enzo Anselmo Ferrari

    Enzo Anselmo Ferrari Formula Junior

    Apr 4, 2009
    493
    France
    Yes, th 308 is a fantastic car!
    I've never tested a 208 yet, but I often drive my father's 308 Vetroresina, I love it!
    Wich colour was yours? :)
     
  25. Napolis

    Napolis Three Time F1 World Champ
    Honorary Owner

    Oct 23, 2002
    32,122
    Full Name:
    Jim Glickenhaus
    Silver.

    I painted a flat black bottom half on it and then painted the entire car gloss black.
     
  26. Enzo Anselmo Ferrari

    Enzo Anselmo Ferrari Formula Junior

    Apr 4, 2009
    493
    France
    Looks good!
    A great French collector, Albert Uderzo, has (had?) a silver 308 , and my father's is dark blue metal!
    Is it 0846 on the cover of the book "Ferrari Sport & Prototype" by Antoine Prunet? Published in the early 80's I think, and a photo of 330 P3 or P4 Spyder, and a yellow frame.
    If you want I can post a photo of my copy, on Saturday or Sunday :)
     

Share This Page